Michael Shannon can be a prankster, particularly during interviews conducted over the phone. I know this, because I’ve seen him do it.
Before an in-person interview for Jeff Nichols’ “Midnight Special,” I witnessed him end what seemed like a cordial phone interview, only to do a bit as he hung up in which he said a few disparaging things about the outlet’s home city that they “weren’t supposed to hear,” just to see what happened. Then there was the time he told an interviewer (again, over the phone) that General Zod in “Man of Steel” would have flippers instead of hands. (That one wound up getting a lot of attention.)
The last time I asked the actor about this, he explained, “I didn’t have to sell it with my face, just my voice.” This time around? We’re doing a phone interview.
This interview was supposed to happen in-person at the Toronto International Film Festival, where the film premiered to rousing applause, but schedules didn’t work out and it later became what industry insiders call “a phoner.” Still, Shannon promised, no pranks this time, because the movie at hand is too important. From the title alone, no, “Nuremberg” doesn’t really lend itself to horsing around.
But! One of the interesting things about James Vanderbilt’s film, which features Shannon as Supreme Court justice Robert Jackson after he’s tapped to prosecute the living hierarchy of the Nazi party after World War II (including a disturbingly charming performance from Russell Crowe as Herman Göring, the highest-ranking living Nazi), is the humor.
As Shannon stresses, he’s human. He has to figure out how to navigate setting this trial up, involving multiple countries, and then not losing. This involves working with psychiatrist Douglas Kelly (Rami Malek), who has been analyzing the captured Nazis, and navigating where the boundaries are between doctor-patient privilege and, well, just not caring, because they are some of the worst people who have ever lived.
Also, yes, there’s plenty of R.E.M discussion, as Shannon and Jason Narducy — who have been touring and performing full R.E.M. albums, including a couple of performances with the actual band — get ready to announce their “Lifes Rich Pageant” tour. And we get into Shannon’s next role, as (surprisingly) former New York Giants head coach Bill Parcells.
The following interview has been edited and condensed for clarity and length.
IndieWire: I’ve always been wary to interview you on the phone. You pull pranks on phone interviews.
Michael Shannon: Pull pranks, like what?
When I interviewed you for “Midnight Special,” I walked into your room and you were doing an interview with, I think, the Toronto Star. As you were hanging up the phone, you started badmouthing Toronto as a joke to see what would happen if they heard you.
I do have a pretty twisted sense of humor.
And then another time you told a reporter General Zod would have flippers for hands.
[Laughs] Oh, right.
You said it’s easier to sell these things on the phone.
Alright, well, I’m dead serious right now.
“Nuremberg” is a pretty serious movie, but your interpretation of Justice Robert Jackson has a lot more levity than I thought there’d be, which was welcome.
They’re all people. They’re all real people. And I think that’s one of the points of the movie is that these are actual real human beings. One of the great things you can do with historical drama is turn people onto that fact. Because when you’re reading about it in some giant textbook or something, it feels undigestible, or you just get tired of it. But, lo and behold, these are actual people and every single character in this movie, despite their circumstances, has a personality. And, dare I say, a sense of humor.
Well, you just mentioned textbooks, and I know how diligently you prepare for stuff. How many textbooks did you have to read for this?
Well, at first I read “The Nazi and the Psychiatrist,” which the film is based on. But that honestly doesn’t have so much about the trials in it. I had never heard of Robert Jackson before, but if you go on the internet there’s a website devoted to him. He has his own website. And I looked at that and then I found a book to read about him. I didn’t read 20,000 books or anything.
I don’t know how much you think about this, I’m guessing you don’t, but when you get into heavy scenes with Rami Malek, then later Russell Crowe, it’s great to watch three Oscar winners and/or nominees just going at it.
Well, I think the story and the script and the project merited that level of commitment and professionalism. I mean, it demands the top echelon. It makes me a little squeamish to include myself in that category…
You are an Oscar nominee. That is a fact.
I’m just saying, there’s a gravity to it. For some people watching this movie, they’re really not going to know much about what happened. And there’s a whole younger generation that really knows diddly squat about what happened. So, this might be their only exposure to it, you never know. Despite our accomplishments, we all felt an extreme amount of duty and obligation to push ourselves. Because if you’ve been doing this a long time, people have been known to rest on their laurels from time to time. But this is definitely not a situation to do that.
I was in awe of the amount of work that Russell put into this. And Rami. I mean, they both worked their tails off. There’s something very thrilling about… I haven’t really had my courtroom drama yet.
Right, like “A Few Good Men.” Obviously you and Russell have a different story dynamic than [Tom] Cruise and [Jack] Nicholson. In this, both characters are supposed to be very good at cross-examination.
What’s interesting is that that actual testimony went on for much longer than it does in the movie. Russell gave me a book, the transcripts, just of Jackson questioning Göring, and it’s a very long book. And even in its distillation, there are parts of it that are tricky to follow, but I like that. I like that it’s just not, “You did something wrong.” “No, I didn’t.” “Yes, you did.” It’s more intricate than that. Göring is a frighteningly intelligent individual with very selective blindness.
There are a couple moments in this I was thinking, “Well, everyone knows that.” But like you said, there are a whole host of young people who really know nothing about this specifically or the atrocities of World War II.
And it is something that should not be forgotten definitively for all of our sakes. Jamie’s managed to make a film that is informative, perhaps even educational, but you don’t really notice it so much while you’re watching it because it’s also just a good, old-fashioned movie.
Yeah, they used to make movies like this all the time. There is a tendency to label anything not IP or a superhero movie a throwback, but that also doesn’t mean it’s not true.
Well, I mean, Jamie’s been around a while and he’s been writing a long time.
He wrote “Zodiac.”
Yeah! So, he’s from that tradition. He understands it. But I know exactly what you’re saying. Just because something isn’t “The Avengers” or something doesn’t mean it’s a throwback.
Speaking of throwbacks and Tom Cruise, “Vanilla Sky” was on cable the other day. You’re in a shot with Cruise and Kurt Russell. It’s weird, because it feels like you went back in time just to insert yourself in that scene, because now it’s three famous actors.
[Laughs] I used to do a lot of work that, day player stuff. My career has been very much like the tortoise, slow and steady wins the race. It was not a meteoric rise, but I just kept showing up and they kept giving me a little more to do. And now, here I am.
People love that you’re in “Groundhog Day,” but I like bringing up that you’re in “Chain Reaction.”
Yeah, that’s a rather obscure one. I think, honestly, for everybody involved in the project, not just me. That’s neither here nor there.
I am so excited you and Jason Narducy will be performing “Lifes Rich Pageant.” That’s my favorite R.E.M. album. When you announced this on “The Tonight Show,” I was getting annoyed he wanted you to skip to “Monster,” because this is the one I’ve been waiting for.
We can’t skip. I mean, because the rule is it has to be the 40th anniversary. That’s the rule. We’re doing the 40th anniversary of dot, dot, dot. We skipped “Reckoning” for reasons.
Why?
I don’t know. But we played the heck out of “Reckoning” on the “Murmur” tour. And we also played a lot of “Reckoning” on the “Fables” tour. Even though “Reckoning” didn’t have a firm tour, I think we played “Reckoning” more often than any other album.
And you did “Pretty Persuasion” with R.E.M., right?
Yes! That happened, yes.
That’s as good as playing your own “Reckoning” tour.
Yeah, yeah, we did it. We did those songs a lot. And so now it’s on to “Lifes Rich Pageant.” We’re doing 22 shows in February and March next year. They’re just about to announce the tour. I think they’re announcing it in September.
I cannot wait to hear your version of “Flowers of Guatemala.”
Thank you. I’m really looking forward to it. I love this record. Everybody really loves this record so much.
Obviously the other ones you’ve done have rockers on them, but that whole album is almost non-stop rock music. Well, the one I just mentioned is a little slower.
Yeah, yeah, all hands on deck! And they made that in Bloomington, Indiana, which is the last stop on our tour. I think the fellow who produced it, he was working with John Mellencamp.
“Fables” they made in London with a very different producer, Joe Boyd. I mean, beautiful producer, made beautiful music, and I love that record just as much as “Lifes Rich Pageant.” They have very different tones to the records. You can feel it on “Lifes Rich Pageant,” it’s a very full-bodied sound. Much more, I don’t know, much more earthy.
And next you’re playing Bill Parcells, alongside David Corenswet in “Mr. Irrelevant.” I’m in. I do realize it’s a sad story.
I was surprised! I was kind of hesitant to do it just because it felt like a stretch to me. But I love working with Jonathan Levine very much.
He is the nicest guy.
Yeah, he’s a good person and he’s a lot of fun to be on set with and work with. So, he talked me into it. And I got to say I’m really glad I did it. I learned a lot about something that, honestly, I may not have put too much attention on otherwise. But that’s the great thing about what I do. Your perspective is just always expanding every time you do a job.
Honestly, I can’t really define what you’re “doing” easily anymore because you’re kind of doing it all right now.
Well, I am riding on the shoulders of giants, as Michael Stipe would say. We have their music to play. And it is nowhere near the thrill of seeing the actual band, but we do our best.
“Nuremberg” premiered at the 2025 Toronto International Film Festival. Sony Pictures Classics will release the film in theaters on Friday, November 7.
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