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Amanpour
Interview with Episcopal Bishiop of Washington and "We Can Be Brave" Author Mariann Budde; Interview with First Female Space Shuttle Commander Eileen Collins; Interview with "The Alabama Solution" Co-Director Charlotte Kaufman; Interview with "The Alabama Solution" Co-Director Andrew Jarecki. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 31, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
Hello, CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Mariann Budde: I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country. We're scared now.\
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Washington Bishop Mariann Budde tells me about beseeching a president and her new book, "We Can Be Brave." Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EILEEN COLLINS, FIRST FEMALE SPACE SHUTTLE COMMANDER: I did not want to make a mistake because I didn't want people to say, oh, look, the woman
made a mistake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- the first female space shuttle commander. I talk to Eileen Collins about shooting for the stars and making history.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How can a journalist go into a war zone but can't go into a prison in the United States of America?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- a shocking expose of unchecked abuse. The filmmakers behind the new documentary, "The Alabama Solution, tell Hari Sreenivasan about the
inmates who risked their lives to reveal the truth.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Professors and students afraid to speak freely on college campuses, federal
workers afraid of losing their jobs, LGBTQ plus groups afraid of rights rollbacks, immigrants afraid of raids and mass deportations. For many, the
opening act of President Donald Trump's second term has been defined by fear. And yet, people continue to take a stand. Nearly 7 million Americans
are estimated to have marched across all 50 states this month in protest. And our first guest used her moment in the national spotlight to speak up
at Washington's mighty National Cathedral.
Mariann Budde, the Episcopal Bishop of Washington, spoke to him, implored him from her pulpit to have mercy for those who may be frightened for the
future. Now, a book she wrote during Trump 1.0 has been adapted for younger readers, and it's called "We Can Be Brave." She joined me from Washington
to explain how she hopes they will find their own moments of courage.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Bishop Mariann Budde, welcome to our program.
MARIANN BUDDE, EPISCOPAL BISHIOP OF WASHINGTON AND AUTHOR "WE CAN BE BRAVE": Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: I want to start by asking you the obvious. You brought out a book several years ago, and you brought it out again for children, if I
could say, the children's version, "We Can Be Brave." Tell me why you've adapted it for younger readers.
BUDDE: Well, first of all, thank you. I was thrilled to have the opportunity to adapt themes of courage for younger readers, first of all
because many of the most consequential decisions we make in life have their roots in things that happened to us when we were young and the choices that
we made when we were young.
So, I wanted to underscore that for young readers, that they already have important lessons of courage in their lifetime. I wanted to give them as
many insights and lessons that I could from my own life and, more importantly, from characters and biblical and historical figures that they
have known to remind them, to remind us all that courage isn't something that only brave people have, but that it's a lifelong journey of lessons
and practice and efforts that we make, large and small.
AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you then, do you think this book is a bit of a primer? I mean, can you learn? Can you be taught braveness?
BUDDE: Oh, absolutely. I think we all are. I think from the moment -- from our earliest steps in childhood, we are always crossing thresholds of
things we've never done before. And every time we do, we're learning something about what courage requires. And I think we are created to do
that very thing, to cross those thresholds. And so, absolutely, it is something that we learn throughout our lives.
AMANPOUR: So, in other words, it's not just innate, it's something that you can learn by everything you absorb and read.
BUDDE: Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: Exactly. So, you quote Eleanor Roosevelt's definition of courage, doing what you think you cannot do.
BUDDE: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: So, did you ever do something that you thought you could not do?
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BUDDE: I would say, weekly, I have done something I thought I couldn't do. And particularly in young adulthood, early adolescence, the things that
just seemed impossible. But, you know, even in my 60s, there are times when I feel that what's being asked of me is beyond what I can do.
As a person of faith, I draw upon the spiritual reservoirs that we all have, and I wanted to lift those up as well, as well as the communal aspect
of courage, that it's actually a bit contagious. We are inspired by the courage that we see in other people that give us confidence that we might
be able to do something of the same.
AMANPOUR: So, I want to ask you this, because most people know a very visible demonstration of your courage. You may not call it courage, but
some people thought it was the definition of courage when you spoke truth to power and you spoke your truth in the form of a supplication, really, to
President Donald Trump during his -- just after his inaugural. Before I play it, I just want to know, did you define that as courageous?
BUDDE: Well, it certainly required my willingness to step into a place of vulnerability where I could not predict or control the outcome of what I
believed was mine to say in that moment. So, in that way, I would say it did require of me courage. Yes.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, now, we're going to play what you said from the pulpit on that day with President Trump in the front row, and, you know, it was a
religious ceremony. Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUDDE: In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared now. There are gay, lesbian and transgender
children in Democratic, Republican and independent families, some who fear for their lives. I ask you to have mercy, Mr. President, on those in our
communities whose children fear that their parents will be taken away and that you help those who are fleeing war zones and persecution in their own
lands to find compassion and welcome here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: You've talked about just what it took for you to speak that truth to that power. We now hear what you said, and that was in January.
It's now 10 months later, and all that you said there actually has been actioned by President Trump and his administration. The fear amongst the
gay and lesbian and transgender community, the fear amongst immigrants and children who see their parents snatched from every which way and deported
and even kids being deported. When you said it, A, what was the reaction and how did your congregation react to you?
BUDDE: The reaction was widespread. I think it was well known after -- immediately afterwards that the president and his supporters were not at
all pleased and thought that I had been at best inappropriate and worst deeply outrageous in my remarks. On the other side, there was an enormous
outpouring of support and gratitude from around the country and around the world.
And so, it's an interesting phenomenon to be a part of something like that, but I would say that it was an opportunity for me to lift up some very
basic biblical and spiritual values into that space and to honor the very people who were being and are being so dehumanized now. And when you ask
about the congregation I serve, I would say that many of the people that I serve support the positions that I've taken because they are not mine. They
are part of our broad spiritual tradition.
Others disagree. We are not a monolithic church, but they respect my convictions and I respect those who differ with me.
AMANPOUR: So, you're never under threat of being cancelled?
BUDDE: Not at the moment. We live in interesting times.
AMANPOUR: We do. You talk about a culture of contempt in the United States. You know, for me, that was quite a shocking way to put it. I come
from abroad. I've seen, you know, the great parts of the U.S. I came over there to, you know, make my fame and fortune or whatever you say, follow my
dreams. And you talk about -- this was in a sermon this spring, actually, so it is new this.
In Germany, you said, one of the greatest challenges in the United States today is a culture of contempt that has normalized hateful speech and
encourages violence. You've also said that we are deeply divided. The intensity of this polarization and this culture of contempt sustains, you
know, a threat to destroy us. It's actively promoted by those within and outside the United States who benefit financially and politically from our
divisions.
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So, it's a big thought that you are talking about.
BUDDE: It's a big thing.
AMANPOUR: Yes, it's a big, big thing. Tell me a bit more about the culture of contempt that you identify.
BUDDE: It's not something that I -- it's not a concept unique to me. It's -- but I am persuaded by virtue of what we are invited to consume through
the media, through social media, through almost every messaging source that we have in this country, to view those with whom we disagree through lenses
of intense suspicion and even hatred.
And so, you can see the statistics that say that those of us who are on one side of a political or cultural divide see those on the other side with
increasing hostility. And we've been given license to speak to and about one another in the most extreme forms. And I don't think there's any
disputing that, you just have to just follow any social media feed or cultural influence or to see that that's the case.
I think what's important for us as Americans to realize is that we have all been influenced by this culture and the language of contempt has become
increasingly normalized in our daily speech. And so, how we can, every one of us, pay attention to the ways that we speak to and about one another and
perhaps to have greater curiosity and a willingness to engage with those who see the world differently and not to allow those who put us in
caricatures of difference to hold the final word.
Now, I do want to make the distinction between the ways that many of us relate to each other in our neighborhoods and in our communities, but the
public arena and increasingly some of our private spaces are marked by greater and greater hostility.
AMANPOUR: I guess then you must have been encouraged and actually sort of empowered when you saw two of the major world faith leaders meet together
in the Vatican in the Sistine Chapel just recently, right?
BUDDE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: The American Pope Leo, Roman Catholic, and the British King, Charles III, head of the Church of England, two different strains of
Christianity. And they prayed together and it was the first time that the British had allowed a king or any monarch to be showed praying publicly.
Just what was that lesson? What's the lesson to be learned? What did you take from it?
BUDDE: Well, first of all, it's a very personal connection on both sides of that. As an American, I'm a huge admirer of Pope Leo and so grateful for
his witness on the global stage, and King Charles and the Church of England, that is the tradition to which I belong in the wider Anglican
communion. And so, to see the two of them together and to know something of the backstory of how long the Anglican communion and the Roman Catholic
Church have been in dialogue to work, to find highest possible ground between us, where we can be united in our, in our witness to Christ and his
message of love in the world, while acknowledging on so many levels.
In fact, my very ordination stands in -- right in the middle of the differences between our traditions. And yet, that doesn't -- that didn't
keep the two of them from not only speaking, but praying together. And I might add that Anglicans and Roman Catholics pray together all the time in
other contexts, right? And I happen to be married to a Roman Catholic. So, it's not that we aren't praying together, but to see the highest of leaders
do so in a public way to demonstrate that common purpose was -- it was inspiring. It brought tears --
AMANPOUR: And it was the first time in 500 years that these two --
BUDDE: 500 years.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes. Amazing.
BUDDE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: But it's interesting what you say, because you said a little bit, you know, I'm sort of in the middle. You are an ordained woman. The
Catholics do not do that. I wonder whether you beat up on your husband for that and try to get it.
BUDDE: Well, he's very much in agreement with the ordination of women.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Let me end, because this is a book for youngsters and you say in your book, parenting was for me, a masterclass in courage, not a
class that I taught, but one where I was the student. Finish that thought.
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BUDDE: Well, as I mentioned earlier, witnessing how very young children and then throughout adolescence and young adulthood, how are children and
grandchildren cross these enormous thresholds of both physical, emotional tasks that they have never done before and how they must persevere and pick
themselves up from failure and start again and learn to discern between all the voices that come at them, where the true -- where truth lies for them
and how the spirit that is within them comes into their own -- comes into being and formation.
I cannot stress highly enough how significant and important it is for those of us who are elders, not only to cherish our young people, but to marvel
at how, how they are created to do such extraordinary things in their lives and how we as the elders around them are poised to support and encourage
and then allow them to take their place, their rightful place as emerging leaders among us.
AMANPOUR: Bishop Mariann Budde, thank you very much. I'm going to add one word, we can all be brave.
BUDDE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Thank you so much.
BUDDE: Indeed. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Coming up to another trailblazer, this one broke through the glass ceiling into space. I speak to the first female shuttle pilot and
commander, the American astronaut Eileen Collins.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: And now, from one show of courage to another, NASA is working very hard to get humans back on the moon before 2030. The last time that
happened was over 50 years ago when Eileen Collins was just a teenager in upstate New York. She had later become the first female space shuttle
commander. Here's what she told CNN aboard her final mission, which was in 2005.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EILEEN COLLINS, FIRST FEMALE SPACE SHUTTLE COMMANDER: I think it's time for us to come home, but I'm having a great time up here. The Earth is
absolutely beautiful. We're having a great time as a crew. We're really having a space experience of a lifetime for me. We've done a little bit of
everything on this flight. And so, happy to have done it, but it's time to come home and keep working on getting the shuttle better and ready to fly
in the future and time to see our families again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And that moment is coming. Her incredible journey is the subject of the film "Space Woman." Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a large part of the community that didn't just think she couldn't do it, but were probably actively rooting against
her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She once told me you had to be better than the men to be equal. That's exactly what I want to do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, two, one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think until we are tested, we don't know what we're capable of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And we talked about her capability and all these firsts when she joined me here in the London studio.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Commander Collins, welcome to the program. Can I ask you, you've been retired for a few years, how much did you love it being in space?
COLLINS: I loved it so much that I would go back someday. Not right now, because I've got a lot going on. But the feeling that you -- that a human -
- I would say human body feels physically is so unique. I can't really compare it to anything on Earth. The fluid shift that you get, it can be a
little bit annoying the first day. You might have a little bit of stomach awareness.
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You know, it's a little irritating when your collar's floating up around your neck and you're losing things and maybe you're bumping into your
crewmates, that's the kind of thing that a person gets over in the first couple days.
And being in space is effortless. It can make you lazy because you're not expending a lot of energy. You're not working against gravity like you do
here on earth. So, your muscles can get weak. Your heart can get weak. Your bones actually lose strength. They lose calcium. But I think I will say the
human experience of being in space is so wonderful that space tourism, I believe, will be extremely successful someday. I have no doubt. I don't
know when it will happen. The cost has to come down and it's got to get safer. We've got to fly more. But as we fly more, it gets, I want to say,
something that people can afford and safe where people are willing to take the risk. Space tourism will be huge.
AMANPOUR: Fantastic to hear because there's so much talk about it. But as you say, it needs a little bit more work. So, here you are, a young girl
growing up in, am I getting this right, Elmira, New York?
COLLINS: Elmira, New York.
AMANPOUR: Elmira, which was known as the sort of gliding center of the United States with its winds.
COLLINS: That's right.
AMANPOUR: You were taken by your father to see a lot of the planes and sort of a plane spotting exercise. And you loved it. You decided that you
loved it, but you need to do a lot of work to get into pilot school and then, you know, astronaut school and all of the rest of it. How difficult
was it for you being a groundbreaking woman in this profession?
COLLINS: Well, I think it's difficult on many different levels. The first thing is financial. So, for someone that wants to be a pilot, I mean, that
costs money to take flying lessons. So, while I was a teenager living in Elmira, I took on a lot of jobs that were not like the best jobs in the
world. I was actually a janitor. I worked at a golf course. I worked at my church. But I learned something from all of those jobs. But I also saved up
my money for flying lessons.
And I think it was also difficult from the angle that there were not many women flying back in those days. I didn't have a woman role model that I
knew personally. So, I found my role models in books. And I remember as a kid, my mom took us to the library and I found the section on -- eventually
when I was older, I found the section on pilots. And I read books on, you know, men and women pilots, military pilots, civilian pilots.
The pilots are explorers. And what they did over the history of -- you know, since the first flight with the Wright brothers, you know, up until
rockets were invented and now, we have astronauts. And to me, that was appealing. And I think not only did I love the flying part, because I like
-- you know, I found that I was pretty good at -- although I wasn't good at sports, I was good at flying.
So, I enjoyed the actual flying part. But I also enjoyed, I'm going somewhere, I'm traveling, I'm exploring, and I'm going places I haven't
been before. So, I think that, you know, it's -- it was difficult, yes, but I think the joy that you get -- that I got at the other end was worth the
uphill climb.
AMANPOUR: Well, it was an uphill climb, not just because of it, you know, it's a massively accomplished job, but because you were the first woman,
you're the first woman to pilot a space shuttle back in 1995, the first woman to command a space shuttle mission back in 1999. But I want to watch
this clip about the pre-launch. We're going to play that and talk about what it was like getting ready.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Looking at the shuttle at night, it's just overwhelming, brilliant light. It's one of the most incredible things that I've ever
seen. And I'm thinking, I'm going to launch on that thing. OK.
Watching the clock count down, that's when your heart starts beating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I'm watching you mesmerized looking at that experience from all those years ago. Do you remember the emotions, your heart, you know, your -
- the adrenaline? How did you keep all of that in check?
COLLINS: I would say the first thing is the training. So, it's very important that we are not distracted by our environment because we as
commander and pilot have to be ready to react to an emergency or something unusual that might happen. If we had not trained for the loud noise, all
the shaking, all the lights flashing in the window, the massive acceleration that your body is under, if you had not trained for that, you
would possibly lose your ability to think straight.
So, we train, train, train. We also practice malfunctions and running checklists in case like an engine fails or you have some kind of a leak or
you have a crack in the window. There's all kinds of things that you train for. So, on launch day, I was actually very confident. And I think I was
excited more about, hey, I'm actually -- I have a -- I'm going up in space and I have a great mission, the mission I believe in, and I'm going to be
part of that mission. And I've got a great team around me. So, I think that's more where the excitement comes from that.
[13:25:00]
I don't think I had fear going out to launch. I think it was more -- if there was any fear, it was more like, if there's a problem, am I going to
make a mistake or am I going to handle it like a genius that I'd like to be? So, I think it's more along those lines. Focus is the big thing.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
COLLINS: Focus.
AMANPOUR: You know, I was interested in part of the documentary, one of the scientists who went up with you, Mike, the British --
COLLINS: Mike Foale.
AMANPOUR: Mike Foale.
COLLINS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And he talks about how you were under essentially the microscope because you were, you know, the first woman pilot, but also how it's really
-- you have to be constantly concentrating, because even a three-centimeter mistake could be the mistake between, I don't know, the rockets --
COLLINS: That's right.
AMANPOUR: -- disbanding or something else catastrophic falling off. So, I just -- it's a lot of pressure all the time up there.
COLLINS: I think there's a lot of pressure for all the pilots, men and women, but because I was the first woman -- in fact, before I went up on my
first flight, my friends who are women pilots, you know, military and civilian, they would say to me, Eileen, go for it, do it for us, show them
that the women can do it. They put more pressure on me than I would put on myself.
I did not want to make a mistake because I didn't want people to say, oh, look, the woman made a mistake. I was the first and I was setting a
precedent for how people would perceive women in the future. And I did not want to set a bad precedence. I'm a swimmer. I'm a runner. Every time I
would be out there doing anything, I'd be running these malfunctions through my head and how I would handle them. I wanted to be the hero that
saved the spacecraft. That was my motivation.
AMANPOUR: Well, and you certainly, and you certainly were the hero of all your missions. Interesting. I think the profile on your husband is really
interesting because he comes across as so supportive. He himself was a pilot. You -- tell us the story. You never thought you were going to get
married. You didn't want to get married. And suddenly, this guy turns up in, I don't know, flight suit or not, but across your desk and asked you
out within the first 10 minutes.
COLLINS: Well, I used to say marriage is going to tie me down and I'm going to not be able to go out and pursue my dreams. Well, that's not
entirely true. If you find the right person -- and Pat was -- Pat Youngs my husband, who was an Air Force pilot and became an airline pilot. He was
supportive of me. And as an airline pilot, he was able to follow me through my test pilot position and eventually as an astronaut, because their basis
can change where and they can commute if they have to.
So, the fact that he was willing to do that and be with me as long as I supported his career isn't -- which is tough for the spouse of an airline
pilot because they're traveling half the time and they're going through sleep shifts. And so, that can be physically hard on him, too. So, I think
we supported each other, similar careers and that we're flying, but different enough -- the missions were different enough that it was
interesting. We'd come back and talk to each other about, hey, what happened in your training or on your flight overseas or, you know, just --
it was really great. And I think we support each other. It's not just one way.
And then we had the children. They came along. And so, Pat was very supportive of the children when I was -- tell when I -- whether I was there
or not, he was a great dad for the kids.
AMANPOUR: It is it is actually really nice to see all that. Let's just put this up here now, this phone call from President Bush. This is him in 2005,
which I think was your last mission?
COLLINS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Obviously, as you prepare to come back, a lot of Americans will be praying for a safe return. So, it's great
talking to you. Thanks for being such great examples of courage for a lot of our fellow citizens.
COLLINS: Well, thank you very much, Mr. President. We want to tell you that we really enjoy what we're doing. We really believe in our mission and
we believe in safe exploration and getting people off the planet and seeing what's out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: That must have been really gratifying, especially since that was your final mission. And it came after a really tricky mission, right? When
one of the -- it was -- there was a Challenger disaster. Then there was one of your own missions where the foam tiles or something came --
COLLINS: Right.
AMANPOUR: So, tell me about those, because, you know, public does focus on that. Yes.
COLLINS: Yes. I say just in any old regular -- I don't say regular, but a normal space shuttle flight, there's enough pressure on the crew. Ours was
one step higher than that in that we had just had the accident and we had lost seven crew members in that accident. I mean, our crew was five weeks
from launch when that accident happened in 2003. And so, of course, we weren't going to fly five weeks later. We had to go into accident
investigation. There was so much we had to do.
And then we switched into the return to flight period, which meant there were many technical problems that had to be fixed to ensure that we didn't
have that same thing that caused the accident happened to us. Well, we thought we had fixed everything in that two and a half years. Well, we
didn't. There was something we missed.
[13:30:00]
So, on our launch, the return to flight mission, we did have this foam fall off for the -- I want to say the mission that we lost that hit their heat
shield. Fortunately, the piece that fell off our flight did not hit us. You know, I got a note one day like the president -- President Bush would like
to talk with the crew. And I thought, oh, no, I don't want to mess this up. This is really important.
So, we did the call and I was probably more nervous on that call than I was on anything else we did because we had not trained for that call with the
president. I should have anticipated it, but I was actually quite honored that he was willing to speak with us.
AMANPOUR: Well, I'm sure you were and that he recognized your groundbreaking experience there, too. But I want to play a clip from that
mission where you were stuck up in space for a while and it was very touch and go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had some repair techniques that were not well proven. What we didn't know was whether the shuttle was capable of safe
reentry, whether we could bring the crew back on Discovery or not. They were stuck in space until we could prove the heat shield was not damaged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, you know, I know you're all trained and you have to do it, but you must have been thinking, what if we never get down? What if
something terrible happens? I mean, you know, the Challenger had happened also 10 years previously, just about.
COLLINS: Right. So, we had a plan in case we did have damage to our heat shield and we couldn't repair it. Safe haven. We called it safe haven where
myself and my seven crew members could stay on the space station. Now, we could not have saved the shuttle that would have had to -- we would have
had to send that back and it would burn up in the atmosphere. But my crew could have stayed on the space station until a rescue flew up to get us.
AMANPOUR: One of the things that I thought was just so beautifully demonstrated in the film, and you must have just loved it when it was
happening, was in the mid-90s, your first missions when you joined up with the space station Mir that the Russians were on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I want to say that Mir is very beautiful and it was very shiny and we're very happy to meet you in the sky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And that you had a whole sort of amazing relationship with them and greetings and exchanging gifts and cookies and sweets and things like
that, trying to learn a few bits of the language. I mean, it just seems like an eon ago that there was that kind of cooperation. And now, there's
no cooperation on the earth just about. So, maybe it still exists in space. But what was it like for you?
COLLINS: Yes. So, President Clinton started this Shuttle-Mir Program back in 1993. And then, so that's when we started training for it. And then
1995, we flew our first mission. Now, in the training, I got to know the cosmonauts. Now, at first, it was like, yes, I'm former military. They were
the Soviet Union. They were like the bad guys. Well, now the cosmonauts come to the United States and we the astronauts go over to Russia. And I've
been twice to Russia to train.
And what I've learned is that they're just like us. They're humans. Yes, the culture is different, but the human nature of people, we are -- have so
many similarities, more than we have differences. So, I became friends with many of the cosmonauts. You know, the men and the women. Of course, I once
flew with a woman cosmonaut.
And so, I've learned that -- you know, we laugh together. We solve problems together. We became friends. Even the flight controllers and different
managers and instructors over there, we became friends. And then you can see how quickly that can be lost when the leadership -- you know, you can
see the leadership of the country doesn't always reflect what the people are or what the people want. I mean, it varies. But after Russia invaded
Ukraine, we talked about should we separate the space station, the Russian component from the U.S. as well as the European and the Japanese component?
Well, you can't do that. There's no technical way to do that.
So, we're still working with the Russians now. And believe it or not, we're working well. It are -- I want to say the worker bee level where we have
American -- U.S. astronauts launching on the Soyuz, even European and Japanese astronauts. And then the Russians are launching on the SpaceX
Dragon out of Florida. So, we're still -- we're moving along now.
And, you know, we don't really like talk about the war that much, but we're all aware of what's happening. And we just hope that it is over in a
peaceful solution as quickly as possible.
AMANPOUR: You know, you told me before we came on air that you retired as a U.S. Air Force colonel. You're wearing your uniform and you're proud of
it. So, I wonder what you think about the current secretary of defense who's decided to call himself, I think, secretary of war. They've decided
to call just unilaterally the Pentagon, the Department of War or whatever it is.
[13:35:00]
But he called all these generals and commanders and admirals to D.C. recently, spoke about returning to a male standard in combat jobs. Now,
retired Marine fighter pilot Amy McGrath, who in Kentucky is a Senate candidate, wrote on X. This morning's grandstanding at Quantico only
solidified what we already know, Pete Hegseth continues to disparage and lie about women in the military. He claimed the military needs to, quote,
"return to the male standard in combat jobs of 1990." But here's the truth. There's never been a separate male and female standard. When women entered
combat roles, one standard was set and we've been meeting it ever since. You can either do the job or you can't, period. Your reaction?
COLLINS: Yes, there's actually -- I love the question, by the way. I went through basic training. Now -- so I agree with what she said now, but it
changes over the years. So, when I went through basic training, it was a different standard for the women. Now, that was 1976. So, the men had to
run a mile and a half in 12 minutes or less. The women only had to do a one and a half continuous run and no one cared about the time. And I said,
that's not right. I said, why can't I go? I know the women can -- I know that we, as long as we're in good shape, can do the male standard. So, I
ran with the guys. And myself and one other woman were the only two that ran with the guys.
And, you know, I mean, we couldn't beat the best guy in the group, but we were still able to make the standard. And I was trying to show the
leadership. They thought they had to treat us differently. They thought that. And so, we, as women, were like, you don't need to treat us any
differently. We're tough. We're here because we love the mission. We want to be -- like I wanted to be a pilot.
And in fact, the other gal that ran with me, she wanted to be a nurse, and she wanted to be a military nurse. And so, we're like, yes, we're good.
Actually, she became a doctor. But we were like, yes, have us do -- so, I think part of it is we need to educate our leaders as to what we're capable
of doing. And I think sometimes -- and I saw this in pilot training, they were trying to let the first class of women go through by, you know, let's
help them out a little bit. No, don't do that. Don't help us. We expect us to do as good as the men because we want the challenge. Otherwise, we
wouldn't have signed up for the military.
I mean, we don't sign up for the military because it's easy, we sign up because it's hard and we want them to push us. So, I agree with -- actually
I agree with both of them, because I think eventually, they're going to come together. And I think that the secretary of defense or secretary of
war will -- is he starts watching what the women are doing, he'll come around and he'll see the attitude of the women in the tough -- if you're
not -- if you don't want to be tough, you're not going to join the military. That's the way I put it. So, kudos for both of them.
AMANPOUR: Commander Eileen Collins, thank you very much.
COLLINS: Thanks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Coming up after the break, "The Alabama Solution," the new documentary that takes an unprecedented look inside America's prisons. We
hear from the filmmakers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Next to Alabama, a state that locks up more of its population than almost any country on Earth. That's what inspired our next guest to
peek behind the curtain and through a network of prisoners willing to risk it all to expose the truth.
[13:40:00]
A new documentary, "The Alabama Solution," was born. Here is some of the trailer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their biggest fear is to see us come together on one board.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got to take our power back. We have to come together and make a stand that our life is worth something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I came to prison in 1985. I know what these folks will do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: To break that silence, filmmakers Andrew Jarecki and Charlotte Kaufman speak to Harish Sreenivasan about how their shocking discoveries
inspired a campaign for change.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. Andrew Jarecki, Charlotte Kaufman, thank you both for joining us. You
recently directed a documentary called "The Alabama Solution" about the conditions inside Alabama's prison system, which houses some 20,000
individuals.
I mean, your film has incredible footage from inside, inmates who have access to cell phones, but what are the conditions there? Because from the
outside, what we see is that the state prisons are operating at nearly 200 percent of their capacity with just a third of the required staff. So, what
does that lead to?
CHARLOTTE KAUFMAN, CO-DIRECTOR, "THE ALABAMA SOLUTION": The conditions are horrible inside Alabama's prison system, and they're deadly, and they're
brutal, and they're upheld by a very corrupt administration. These conditions have been documented in a Department of Justice report that came
out in 2019, and further documentation followed up in a Department of Justice lawsuit. But it's very hard to understand the everyday brutality
and violation of constitutional rights by just reading a report.
But once you see it on the cell phone footage, there's a whole new level of understanding it on a visceral human level. And what you see is an
environment where your life is threatened every day, where you are not guaranteed medical care, where there is rampant drug use, where people are
being forced to work for free, where mental health crises are being exacerbated. And I think what we hope the audience will take from the film
is beyond what any written legal document could provide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have record numbers of people (INAUDIBLE) out of here in body bags. They don't want the public to see what's really going on
on the inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How can a journalist go into a war zone but can't go into a prison in the United States of America?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state necessarily (INAUDIBLE) after another.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no consequences for their action.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not the inmates that's killing them folks, it's the guards.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: Andrew, the cell phone footage, these are from contraband phones, right? But how is it that so many inmates had access to cell
phones? And how did you get it?
ANDREW JARECKI, CO-DIRECTOR, "THE ALABAMA SOLUTION": You know, I was talking to one inmate in the system and asked about how it's possible that
there's so many drugs in the system and that there are so many cell phones, which was shocking to us as well. Where are they coming from? And he sort
of looked at me incredulously and said, you know, we don't leave, right? And it struck me that it was clear these things were coming in and we
learned about this as we investigated from officers. And officers are operating a very lucrative trade in drugs and cell phones.
SREENIVASAN: You highlight a number of individual stories in the documentary. And one of those was a man named Steven Davis who dies in
prison. It's actually through anonymous phone call that his mother hears that her son was beaten to death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Well, I understand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who's this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, don't -- you know, I'm just -- I know you're grieving and mourning and I -- but I just -- I wanted to tell you that your
son was beaten to death by an officer. That was a murder. You know, they switch stuff underneath the rug all the time about this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: Tell our audience a little bit about Steven Davis and what happened to him.
JARECKI: Well, like a lot of people that are incarcerated, Steven was a somewhat troubled kid, but not very different than a lot. You know, he went
through his life and ran into some problems, especially because of drug use. And so, he was in prison under the sort of felony murder statute
because he was in a car with somebody who went into a house to buy drugs and there was an altercation and that person shot someone and then came
back out in the car and forced him to drive away. So, he had never pulled the trigger.
And, you know, there are many people in prison who do pull the trigger or have pulled the trigger, but he ended up in a jail where he was tased and
was -- essentially was dead for a number of minutes until he was revived. And then after that had more difficulty, continued to medicate himself with
drugs and ended up in one of the worst prisons in Alabama. There are 14 of those prisons.
[13:45:00]
And it's clear that he got into altercation with an officer. They will say, oh, well, that's because, you know, he was threatening the officer. But as
we hear from the informant who calls us, he says, you know, they make things up all the time like that because they want to be able to say that
the inmate was responsible and that they had no alternative but to use deadly force, which was clearly not the case. And we ended up having the
ability to hear from a whole series of witnesses who were present at the time and said that that was just a made-up story.
SREENIVASAN: We should note that the State of Alabama, in the case of Steven Davis, says that they maintain that Officer Roderick Gadson's use of
deadly force was warranted because Steven Davis refused to drop his knives. You also focus in on how this idea of human rights inside a prison has a
long history, going back to the Civil Rights Movement and perhaps even earlier. And a couple of the people that you focus in on, Robert Orr
Counsel, known as Kinetic Justice, and Melvin Ray, who, after really years of suffering in solitary confinement and living in these conditions, they
sort of band together and create this thing, this idea, this Free Alabama Movement.
And tell our audience a little bit about what that is and how they were able to orchestrate a statewide sort of work strike.
KAUFMAN: Robert Orr Counsel, Melvin Ray, and many other men who we spoke to but who don't appear in the film, have understood for, you know, over a
decade the power of the court of public opinion. And they have understood that if they can reach the public, that the public will be horrified by
what's happening inside these facilities in terms of brutality, in terms of free labor, in terms of profiting off of the suffering of others.
And they have, you know, really since cell phones first appeared inside these facilities, since around 2013, have been using the devices to capture
their realities and share them with the public and with the press in hopes of sparking a conversation about the dire need to change how we deal with
justice in this country.
And they also have always recognized the power of the -- you know, the importance of the economics in this situation. That this is a system that
is profitable. This is a system that provides great value to the state in terms of labor, $450 million a year in terms of unpaid services and labor.
And that they have the power to communicate with the outside world. And then they also have the power to, as they say, shut the system down and
prevent it from profiting and hope that that will be a lever to start a real conversation about change.
JARECKI: When you think about the work strike that these men have undertaken, again, it's a peaceful protest. And that's something that's so
difficult to achieve in the free world. And yet, these men, being restricted by tiny forms of communication, furtively being able to use cell
phones to try to organize, were able to just reduce the amount of work that was happening in the prisons.
And not just in the prisons. We were really shocked to find that it's not just that Alabama is using the men to sweep the floors inside the prison,
which maybe people could say, well, if they're incarcerated, they should do their part. But actually, they're shipped out in vans every morning. They
work in lots of state facilities, the governor's mansion or on road crews. They work at the state fair. But also, they're essentially leased to
corporations.
So, a lot of these men who are not deemed safe enough to be released from prison are every day going to work at McDonald's, or going to work at
Burger King, or going to work at KFC, or going to work at the Hyundai plant, or the Budweiser distributor. They're out in the world and yet,
they're not considered safe enough to be given a chance to re-enter society, which is why parole is so low in the state.
SREENIVASAN: You know, the Department of Justice had a multi-year investigation into this. And in the lawsuit that they filed against
Alabama, they said the complaint alleges that the conditions at Alabama's prisons for men violate the Constitution because Alabama fails to provide
adequate protection from prisoner-on-prisoner violence and prisoner-on- prisoner sexual abuse, fails to provide safe and sanitary conditions, and subjects prisoners to excessive force at the hands of prison staff.
[13:50:00]
Now, for the record, we did reach out to the Alabama Department of Corrections for comment about the conditions that your film highlights. As
we speak, we haven't heard back yet, but they did respond to Good Morning America earlier this month. And in that, they said the Alabama Department
of Corrections is aware of the film. Production began in 2019 with footage acquired from inmate contraband cell phones. The ADOC cannot confirm or
comment on the authenticity of any video footage obtained illegally.
What kind of response has the state had? And I guess what's your response to them?
KAUFMAN: Well, I think the state is responding to our film in a similar way that they've responded to the Department of Justice report, which is to
say, we don't agree. We don't have a systemic issue across all our prisons. And we're going to dare defend our rights to run our prisons the way we
want. And I think, you know, they can try to say that they can't validate the footage in the film, but we made our film across six years.
And we did not just collect video footage, we also did extensive reporting through filing FOIAs, autopsies, speaking to multiple government sources,
inside sources. And we have not only investigated the deaths you see in the film, but we have also investigated all deaths that have happened within
the facilities since 2019, since the release of the Department of Justice report. And our investigation shows that the death rate has doubled during
that time, as well as, you know, the drivers, the preventable drivers of death, like drug, murder, suicide, have also increased rapidly.
So, this is a system that is still out of control and that the proposed solutions, like building new facilities, are not realizing real results.
And in fact, things are getting -- you know, have declined further. So, it is still as urgent a situation as it was in 2019, when the Department of
Justice first came in, as today.
JARECKI: I interviewed Steve Marshall, who's the attorney general of the state, and asked him if he thought that there were serious problems in the
prisons. And he said, well, there's this idea that we have some systemic problem in all of our prisons, and I wholeheartedly disagree with that. I
think that that's in part because, you know, there's a sort of philosophy that you can act like something's not happening, even if the public is, you
know, asking questions.
But it just also represents the fact that these people are locked away in places that the public is not allowed to see into, right? Journalists are
not allowed to go into prisons, except very occasionally, in the country, because, hypothetically, they're like safety considerations. But the
reality is, these things are happening. There's nothing the state can do to prevent the information from going out, other than stopping the cell
phones. And in fact, that's what they're trying to do right now.
So, they're installing jammers and spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to make the information stop flowing rather than trying to improve
the conditions that are obviously generating this kind of information.
SREENIVASAN: You know, I wonder, when you talk about the phones, when you talk about this sort of access to information and transparency, whether
this is limited to Alabama, or whether this lack of accountability and insight that we have into prison systems, whether you were able to find
this type of a pattern repeating in other states as well.
KAUFMAN: I would say, you know, the conditions that allowed for the crisis in Alabama to deepen to such a severe extent exist all throughout prisons
in America. Secrecy, lack of accountability, a punitive mindset, an ability to make people work for free, that exists in all of America's facilities.
And I would say, you know, yes, our film is about Alabama, and yes, our film is about prisons, but our film is also about what happens when a
government is allowed to detain people under constrained and surveyed communication with little to no accountability. And that's not just
happening in terms of our state or federal criminal prison system, that's happening in other arenas, too.
[13:55:00]
There is an urgent conversation we need to have about whether detaining people secretly and cutting them off from civil society and cutting the
press off from being able to report on what's happening in institutions is compatible with a democracy.
SREENIVASAN: The HBO original documentary, "The Alabama Solution," is now available to stream on HBO Max. And I want to thank filmmakers Andrew
Jarecki and Charlotte Kaufman both for joining us and just for making the film. Thank you so much.
JARECKI: Thank you for watching and thanks for sharing this with your audience.
KAUFMAN: Yes, thanks for having us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: An important story indeed. That's it for now, though. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs
on our podcast. Remember, you can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
