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Amanpour
Interview with Parents Were Held Hostage in Gaza Sharone Lifschitz; Interview with MSF Communications Officer Al Zawayda Nour Alsaqqa; Interview with Oxfam West Bank Policy Lead Bushra Khalidi; Interview with Former Israeli Justice Minister Yossi Beilin; Interview with Forward Thinking Co-Founder and Director Oliver McTernan; Interview with Former Palestinian Negotiator Hussein Agha; Interview with Sylvie Bermann. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 09, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Hope in the Middle East as Israel and Hamas agree to a Gaza ceasefire and hostage release deal. A report from Egypt where talks were brokered.
And what this moment feels like for hostage families. Sharone Lifschitz, whose parents were held captive by Hamas, joins me.
Plus, jubilation in Gaza. How Palestinians are reacting after two years of brutal war.
Then, the art of diplomacy. We look at what's involved in securing and preserving this fragile peace with key experts and veteran negotiators from
the region.
Also, ahead, Europe welcomes the deal and calls to implement the two-state solution. Former French ambassador to the U.K., Sylvie Bermann, on those
challenges ahead.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
The sun rose this morning over a different Middle East. One brimming with joy and relief that Israel's brutal war on Gaza may finally be over and all
the Hamas-held Israeli hostages, dead and alive, may finally come home. Listen to this man in Khan Younis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Thank God for the ceasefire, the end of the bloodshed and the killing. I am not the only one happy, all of
the Gaza Strip is happy. All Arab people are happy. All of the world is happy with the ceasefire and the end of the bloodshed. Thank you and all
the love to those who stood with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And these are the parents of Hersh Polin-Goldberg, who was abducted by Hamas for 11 months and then executed.
JON POLIN, FATHER OF SLAIN HOSTAGE HERSH POLIN-GOLDBERG: Today has complications because so many in this region have paid the heaviest price.
But for today, we celebrate. We embrace all those families who will be reunited with their loved ones. And we look ahead towards better, more
hopeful, more peaceful days.
RACHEL GOLDBERG-POLIN, MOTHER OF SLAIN HOSTAGE HERSH POLIN-GOLDBERG: We look forward to the coming days and we anticipate the great news. So, keep
praying. The work is not done. And we'll finally get to take off our stickers and use our tape as tape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Israel and Hamas both accepted the first phase of Trump's deal, which calls for an immediate cessation of hostilities, with Israeli forces
withdrawing to an agreed-upon line and all hostages coming back within 72 hours. Israel will also free hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, along with
1,700 people from Gaza who were detained after October 7th. And aid deliveries into Gaza will resume at a level consistent with previous
ceasefires.
President Trump said in a cabinet meeting today that he's planning to travel to the region to mark the occasion. And last night on Fox News, he
gave us a bit of his private conversation with Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Yes, I spoke to Bibi Netanyahu just a little while ago. He called. He said, I can't believe it. He said, everybody's
liking me now, meaning him. He said -- and I said, more importantly, they're loving Israel again. And they really are. They said Israel cannot
fight the world, Bibi, they can't fight the world. And he understands that very well. So, it's amazing the way it's all come together. And it's a
beautiful picture. I don't know if it could ever happen again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: After two years of relentless agony, tens of thousands of Palestinians dead, Gaza turned into rubble, and Israeli hostages still held
captive, this is indeed a major step. But it is the first step and there are still many miles to walk, like Hamas disarmament, a full Israeli
withdrawal, and the future governance of Gaza.
Nic Robertson has been following all of this from Cairo, and he's joining me now with the latest. That's because, Nic, that's where all the
delegations were, right, in Egypt, to get this hammered out?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: They were. And in fact, we understand that Hamas and the mediators were meeting today,
continuing in Sharm el-Sheikh on the Red Sea, to hammer out more details involved in this very sort of partial part of President Trump's 20-point
peace plan, the ceasefire for hostage release and prisoner release.
[13:05:00]
The Palestinian prisoner release was one of the details that was being discussed with negotiators. The Palestinians, Hamas, want some high-level
political figures released amongst all those detainees. It's not clear that Israel is going to offer that. But at this moment, that's a question that's
going to Israel's security cabinet, which Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is chairing at the moment. The details on that, we don't know.
Another point that was still being discussed was the handover of all the hostages, living and deceased, because Hamas says they don't know where all
the deceased are, where all the remains are. So, these are not stumbling blocks, per se, that are going to bring it all down. But it's indicative of
just how quick the headline announcement was made about phase one, when even details of it weren't fully thrashed out, at the same time of so many
other details that you just mentioned there.
Another one might be the International Implementing Stability Force that comes in. When they come in, the IDF moves back and out of Gaza. But in the
interim, is it the IDF that is supposed to be involved in disarming Hamas, or does the IDF pull back with Hamas still with their weapons, and that
falls to the international body? There are so many troubling, difficult, complex, sequential issues that we're yet to learn about.
AMANPOUR: Yes. I mean, yes, I hear you. And one of the things that you were talking about earlier, and that we saw flash on the wires, was Hamas
insisting on a formal declaration to the end of the war. And I don't know how that's going to come, and that's something that they've wanted all
along, right? They've wanted, you know, in return for whatever they agree, an end to the war, so that Netanyahu doesn't just start it up again. Is
that something that is still under consideration? Could it be a stumbling block?
ROBERTSON: We don't know. I mean, President Trump today said that when he comes to Egypt, he'll be signing a document. In the text of that document,
is he putting his name to guarantees of the other mediators, putting their names to some kind of formal guarantee that amounts to reinforcing the fact
that Israel can't go back to war, which would underpin a formal declaration of an end of war? Not just the ceasefire is being discussed at the moment.
And it's that formal declaration, as you say, that Hamas says is so important that allows them to give up the hostages, which all along have
been their leverage. Their big fear, of course, if they give up the hostages, Israel could go back to war, and they want that international
backing.
So, I think when we understand and see the details in the document that President Trump signs, or get more details about the exact language, we'll
understand better how much of a leap of faith Hamas is taking and how much pressure Israel is under to conform to what's expected of them.
Hamas certainly briefing its audience and its public that they have taken these moves to end the killing, to end the starvation, to end the
displacement. They say over and above all other issues, which implies the issues of their own armament, their issues of their own political
participation in a future administration in Gaza. It also sounds a little bit like Hamas saying we're doing this for you, the people, not for
ourselves. Again, how this plays out, we don't know.
But Hamas clearly positioning itself there within its own audience. But they 100 percent are looking to the mediators and to the United States to
keep Israel from going back to war. How that's formulated, we don't know.
AMANPOUR: And, of course, the United States will expect all the Arab countries to keep Hamas aligned with its obligations under all of this. So,
Nic, thank you very much indeed.
And now, for many of the hostage families, this is, of course, a bittersweet moment, like for Sharone Lifschitz, whose parents were brutally
kidnapped on October 7th. A few weeks later, her mother, Yocheved, was one of the first hostages returned alive in a deal. But after more than a year
of hoping for her father's safe return, the body of 83-year-old Oded was brought home in the last ceasefire deal eight months ago, hailed by many as
a man of peace.
And Sharone joins me now here in London. So, welcome, you know, back to our program. We've been talking to you on and off. You've become kind of a
spokesperson for the hostage families, for those of us here in the U.K. You live here mostly. And you have, you know, shared your rollercoaster journey
with us and helped us through. How do you feel today?
[13:10:00]
SHARONE LIFSCHITZ, PARENTS WERE HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA: I think, first of all, we've all been campaigning for two years and two days for the return
of hostages. We all feel that until the last one returns, we are not out of it. And so, the prospect of all of them returning, all the live ones, and
hopefully all the remains of the ones that perished, this is the most important thing.
AMANPOUR: You wrote an op-ed, a column, for The Guardian newspaper for the second anniversary. And you said that, you know, for so many times we've
had hope, we've been told, we've been promised, sitting on the edge of our seats, and we almost don't dare to hope that this could ever have come to
pass. You know, what were you thinking when you heard the news overnight?
LIFSCHITZ: I think it washes through your body, the wish for it. And I think when you hear it, you start feeling how much it sits on you. And so,
I can't say I'm happy, but I can feel it in my body, that maybe soon I will see the mothers that have their sons alive coming back to them. And then,
we will have, hopefully, 28 funerals. And it's not an easy world to wish for 28 funerals. But this is where we are heading.
And then we would start feeling our loss. We haven't had the time to really feel our loss and to know that our loved ones, the 42 families whose loved
ones arrived alive in Gaza and were murdered while in captivity, we never started the reckoning for that. There's a lot, a lot of steps along the way
still.
AMANPOUR: You -- I assume you've been in touch with your mother today. How is she feeling about this? Because her release was something really special
in every aspect.
LIFSCHITZ: My mom is very excited. My mom continually would say to anyone that she's in the tunnels as long as the other hostages are still in the
tunnels. I think she can see the light at the end of this tunnel now. We have to get there. We haven't got there yet. It needs to happen. And I
think then she would be able to give herself a moment.
AMANPOUR: And you speak about the remains and the 28 funerals. Of course, your father did not survive. He was killed and he came back and you buried
him. What -- have you talked to others like you who know that their family members have not survived?
LIFSCHITZ: Yes, many. It's actually the main conversation I'm having today. It's a very tough moment. It's a very, very tough thing to know that
there were decisions that were taken by the government of Israel that meant that our loved one did not survive. And all of us are united in the wish
for all the live ones to return, but we are left with a very broken heart.
My father was 83, had a full life. How do you reconcile with your young child, with your teenager, with, you know, people who had a lifetime still
ahead of them and lost this life?
AMANPOUR: You were amazing from the beginning because even through that pain and through your parents and I suppose your education as you grew up
watching them, you were a peace activist, you were a peacenik, if I could say that. You believed that across the border there needed to be -- or
across the fence, there needed to be some kind of, not just ceasefire, but reconciliation in order to be able to live as, you know, dignified people
with sovereignty on both sides of the border. And I just wonder whether you still think that that's possible and whether your mom, you know, still
holds on to that hope.
LIFSCHITZ: I think we have to always separate between governments and individuals. I think we have to have faith in the possibility of a belief
in something better. I'm very worried about the next stages and Hamas because if Hamas keep hold of the Gaza Strip, then the future for our
neighbors is not any better.
Hamas brought them here, brought them to their knees, brought untold suffering and I hope for them that the next stages will mean that they will
be free to speak their mind, to have a change of leadership on both sides so that something better can come out of it.
AMANPOUR: And do you -- you know, there's been a lot of protest, a lot of, you know, trouble around protests during this whole two years and you have
said, you know, you wrote in this column that it's one thing to want peace for the Palestinian people, it's another thing to treat Hamas as some kind
of -- I can't remember the word you used, but some kind of benign resistance movement.
[13:15:00]
Do you -- tell me about that because I know you've been incredibly offended by some of the conversations you've been hearing.
LIFSCHITZ: Hamas came to my community, Kibbutz Nir Oz. They took 76 hostages and they destroyed most of the houses and they killed 50, some of
them in the most brutal way possible, torture, unbelievable suffering. It's Hamas.
I sit here and I hear people talk about this organization as if this is a decent way to behave as a human. And I cannot imagine that anybody would
imagine that that is a good way forward. I have not been for my government, I've made clear, and so did the majority of Israelis. You know, the
majority -- there's hundreds of thousands on the street for two weeks -- two years, every week, campaigning for the end of the war, the release of
the hostages. So, we are not all our government, we are not all Smotrich and Ben-Gvir.
And I think that if we cut through us in a different way, those of us who believe in the sanctity of life, those of us that believe in whatever crazy
idea they believe in, then we have a chance of coming together and making a region that is fit for purpose, fit for life.
AMANPOUR: You know, you said earlier in our conversation that you resent very deeply the fact that this could have been ended a while ago, and some
of the negotiators, as you've seen, Gershon Baskin and others have been posting, that this very deal, or very close to it, was available, you know,
last -- just this past January, it was available last September, and your government decided that it wasn't -- they didn't want to go for peace.
So, I wonder how these resolves if all the -- once you get your families back, once Israel is able to go through the mourning, and I don't know how
long it will take to reduce the trauma, but do you think that there will be an internal reckoning?
LIFSCHITZ: I very much hope so. I hope we are not too tired. I think that this government has used our plight, the plight of our people, for its own
purposes. They're still in power after two years, after the worst atrocity happened on the -- in Israel, and that is only because of the hostages.
There's no doubt they wouldn't be in power if the hostages were returned in the beginning.
AMANPOUR: And finally, you write again, very movingly, about your mother's, I mean, viral moment, I hate to put it that way, but when she
turned and said shalom to her Hamas captor as he, you know, let her go, it was an incredible moment, and yet, some people decided that it was whatever
they thought it was. To you, it was an instinct to peace, I assume. Is that what you still think and she still believes?
LIFSCHITZ: You know, I think a lot of what's happening now, happening online, when we are not there in spirit, in body, we don't see the humanity
of each other. It makes it easier to hate. It makes it easier for the algorithm to push us one way or another. And my mom, at that moment, sat in
front of a human being and they had an exchange, and she saw his humanity, we saw her. If we are not blinded by hate, we can see each other's
humanity. That complicates things, but also makes it human.
AMANPOUR: Such an important moment. And I wish the best for you. You gave me this, your brother made it, is that right?
LIFSCHITZ: Yes, my brother Omri.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LIFSCHITZ: Yes.
AMANPOUR: The yellow cactus.
LIFSCHITZ: You are in good company.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LIFSCHITZ: Yes.
AMANPOUR: I've been wearing it.
LIFSCHITZ: Thank you. Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: Yes. This is hopefully a good day for you all and hopefully it will lead to the release of everybody and hopefully, it will lead to peace.
The world is now implicated and involved, and the president of the United States has put all his might behind this and hopefully he can continue to
make it a proper ending.
LIFSCHITZ: I think it's the first stage and we must push towards the next stages.
AMANPOUR: Let's hope. Thank you, Sharone, for everything.
LIFSCHITZ: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: So, as we've mentioned, after two years of brutal war and at least 67,000 people killed, those in Gaza are breathing a sigh of relief as
well. But it's important to note that the guns have not stopped firing yet and today Israeli tanks were seen opening up on civilians moving north. But
the IDF says it's firing, quote, "smoke bombs" to keep people away from their forces.
So, let's bring in West Bank policy lead for Oxfam, Bushra Khalidi, who joins me from Ramallah, and Nour Alsaqqa, communications officer for MSF,
Doctors Without Borders, who joins me from Gaza, on the phone.
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Nour, I just want to ask you first, how are you feeling? What is the, you know, sentiment amongst people there? It's really difficult to get
communications with Gaza today, so thanks for being with us on the phone.
NOUR ALSAQQA, MSF COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER AL ZAWAYDA: Thank you for having me. Honestly, the situation is still very vague. Among Palestinians and
Gaza, everyone is still very hesitant to even celebrate the ceasefire. This has been very clear with people's reactions across the Strip today.
Some people have celebrated a bit, but for the majority, it is still -- everyone is still questioning whether it's happening or not. I mean, it
does bring a moment of relief from exhaustion, but everyone is doubting, because of the so many experiences before we've had with the different
negotiations, the breaking of the ceasefire, the hesitation. Of all the people, Gazans have -- had their share of trust issues and happy news.
AMANPOUR: Nour, can I ask you whether you have -- I mean, is it as heavy firing and heavy military activity as it has been? Do you sense a lessening
at all?
ALSAQQA: Well, I was just talking to my colleagues how it's been calm today, but just 20 minutes ago, I heard a bomb coming down near us. So,
it's still unclear. And that's what is causing this confusion. I mean, we've been losing so many lives. I mean, an average of about 70 people
getting killed every day by Israeli forces with what we were seeing in the last period.
Just a couple of days ago, we've lost two of our colleagues who are physiotherapists. And it's just these immense losses that we've been
enduring for so long have affected our reaction to this ceasefire currently, that all of us have been feeling nothing but numbness, doubting
whether it's going to last or not.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And, Nour, you have -- obviously, with MSF, you're involved in taking care of those who've been wounded or are sick. And we know how
much of the medical infrastructure has been reduced to rubble and how many, many wounded have come through the doors of all the various hospitals and
care centers that can cope right now.
So, can -- are you able to even vaguely tell us what you might need once humanitarian aid still starts to flow again?
ALSAQQA: I can --
AMANPOUR: Are you there, Nour? So, as I said, it's very, very difficult to reach people in Gaza. There's very spotty communications today of all days.
So, let's turn to Bushra in Ramallah. She's lead there for Oxfam.
Bushra, thank you very much for being with us. I just want to ask you the same question that I was asking Nour. I don't know whether you know, but I
know that there's connection between aid organizations in the West Bank and in Gaza. Can you imagine what might be needed in the immediate future?
Because one of the features, as you know, is this starvation, is a siege. Everything from water to electricity, food, medicine has not been able to
get in in any meaningful way.
BUSHRA KHALIDI, WEST BANK POLICY LEAD, OXFAM: Absolutely. Thank you, Christiane, for having me. I mean, what's needed right now is full,
unrestricted humanitarian access. No more is really restrictions on the entry of aid. No more siege. Crossings needs to be fully open. We don't
need trickles of aid. We need a massive scale up that meets the needs of 2 million people. We need commercial goods to enter Gaza. We need the economy
to be revived. We need to see restaurants, cafes, shops reopen.
People in Gaza have endured unimaginable suffering for the last two months. Relentless bombardment, forced displacement, as you said it, hunger. We
need safe routes. We need fuel for the aid convoys, fuel for hospitals, fuel for water systems. And we need, like I said, commercial goods to flow
freely again.
You know, right now, for example, we were talking yesterday, Gaza needs soap. We need trucks and trucks of soap in Gaza because people are running
out of soap, let alone running out of, you know, basic essentials.
[13:25:00]
So, I hope that this means fully open crossings and no more restrictions on what we can get into Gaza.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you, were you surprised or is it totally natural, Nour was -- you know, she's not jumping up and down and, you know, singing
and shouting, she's very concerned, very stressed, very worried that this might not last. Do you get that?
KHALIDI: I mean, yes, of course, you know, I'm in the West Bank. We're all holding our breaths. I just spoke to my brother-in-law. I've got all my in-
laws in Gaza and he said, you know, nobody can believe it. We don't trust it yet. We can still hear the sound of bombs and Israeli planes and drones
above Gaza. So, for us, it's yet not real.
But of course, you know, I mean, from, from my perspective here in the West Bank and as a humanitarian worker and having worked on this response for
two years, we absolutely welcome the ceasefire, the release of the hostages, but the unlawfully detained prisoners, the Palestinian prisoners
as well.
So, it has to be -- this has to be the start of a real, real effort to restore Palestinian lives, you know, restore their rights and end this
absolutely horrific, horrific assault on Gaza.
AMANPOUR: Bushra Khalidi, can I ask you also, you have said that Gaza is, quote, "a petri dish of disease." And I read something in our introduction,
which said that the Israelis or the agreement says that humanitarian aid, i.e., food, medicine, water, basics will start flowing commensurate with
previous ceasefires. Is that enough?
KHALIDI: Well, right now, yes, Gaza is a petri dish of disease. You know, when you have 2 million people that are displaced, that are crammed into
these overcrowded shelters that with no infrastructure, no clean water, no sanitation, we're hearing of, you know, children defecating openly in Gaza,
we're hearing of children looking for scraps of food in the bins in Gaza that was never unheard of in Gaza before. There were no homeless people in
Gaza before the 7th of October.
So, yes, sure. We can talk about the number of hundreds of trucks, but we need to restore dignity. We need to restore, you know, repair materials.
People need to be able to return to their homes or what is left of their homes and at least start repairing, start repairing basic water
infrastructure.
So, it's not just about, you know, throwing a box of flour and, you know, we're happy with that. No, it needs a full holistic response that responds
to a famine, right? Like we're responding to a famine. It's not a normal humanitarian response.
So, 600 trucks, thousands of trucks, whatever is needed to restore some sort of basic life in Gaza. I mean, please, you know, I've lived this very
personally for the last two years, it is truly enough. And so, people are allowed to have soap, at least, you know what I mean, soap, baby formula,
the basics.
AMANPOUR: Right. Bushra Khalidi, thank you, uh, from Oxfam based in the West Bank there. I just want to go back to Nour. I think we can still talk
to her in Gaza. Nour, you know, just a final thought for you for this moment. You've been working -- walking around, you, you've been in Gaza for
all this time. Is there anything that can be rebuilt? How bad is it? Because we can't see on a big level, but it looks pretty obliterated to us.
ALSAQQA: Yes. Unfortunately, what we keep saying is that, this genocide -- or this ceasefire comes after two years of genocide and two years of
indiscriminate mass killing and destruction to every aspect of life, whether it's infrastructure, health facilities, the home, we've seen the
destruction of literally every aspect of life.
And for this to be restored, like, we need to think about the basics, access to humanitarian assistance, while it must not be dependent on a
peace agreement, unfortunately, it should be like followed by an urgent and a massive scale up of humanitarian aid to address these overwhelming needs,
whether it's medical needs, whether it's psychological needs, whether it's material needs. I mean, we're talking about every single aspect.
But as a medical organization, we've hit a point where patients are literally on the floor because there is no bed. The doctors and the nurses
are changing the dressing for patients who are literally laying on the floor. There's no room. We're working on hospitals and field hospitals that
have reached more than 150 capacity or like a bed occupancy rate, which is almost more than two people per bed in a hospital. It's catastrophic to say
the least. We're not enough of anything, not enough of medical supplies, not enough of medications, not enough human resources.
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: Well, we hope. Nour, thank you very much. Nour Alsaqqa, thank you for telling us what's going on there. Again, we really, really hope
that this is the beginning of, of a new day. So, thank you for being with us.
And we'll have more on this developing story after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Now, whether this Gaza ceasefire plan makes it from phase one to final agreement is all about the details. And my next guests know just how
much work it takes to see this all through to the final phase. Oliver McTernan is a former Catholic priest turned hostage negotiator. He spent
decades working on conflict resolution in the Middle East. Hussein Agha also has a long history of involvement in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.
And his latest book is "Tomorrow is Yesterday: Life, Death, and the Pursuit of Peace in Israel-Palestine." And Yossi Beilin served as Israel's justice
minister. He was also involved in negotiating the Oslo Accords. So, welcome, everybody. Welcome to the program.
If I could go to you, Yossi, first, because you're there in Israel and the government is having its meeting as we speak to sign off on this. What do
you feel now? Is this a legitimate, genuine, you know, U.S.-brokered chance for a permanent change in the situation, obviously to bring back the
hostages and surge in humanitarian aid?
YOSSI BEILIN, FORMER ISRAELI JUSTICE MINISTER: Well, it is a great day for all of us. We almost did not believe that this day would come. And, yes, we
were awakened in the middle of the night, and we cried.
Does it bring us to a permanent agreement between us and the Palestinians? I don't think so. The way is long, because we were negotiating through
mediators with Hamas. But unlike the negotiations in Oslo and many other kinds of negotiations, we did not have the same aim. I mean, we don't want
to see Hamas in Gaza -- Hamas' leadership in Gaza. They should not rule it, while they intend to remain there and are not even ready to put their
weapons aside. So, I think that the main issue is about the morning after, which has not come yet.
And this morning, we'll have to deal with the negotiations on longer range, which means between the government of Israel and the PLO or the legitimate
daughter of the PLO, which is the Palestinian Authority. That will not be simple, it will not be possible with the current government in Israel. So,
we have a long way to go.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, let me turn to, you know, conflict resolution expert Oliver McTernan here. So, if it's not possible with the current government
in Israel, if it's not possible with Hamas in its current incarnation, where do you see this going? I mean, obviously, today is wonderful for the
immediate needs and the ceasefire, stop the killing, return the hostages. You know, it's meant to happen in 72 hours. But beyond that, you've spent a
lot of time between two sides.
[13:35:00]
OLIVER MCTERNAN, CO-FOUNDER AND DIRECTOR, FORWARD THINKING: Well, first of all, we're all delighted where we are today. The trouble is how we got
there. And we got there through, I would say, a unilateral ultimatum. Now, it hopefully will deliver the hostages, for their sake and their families'
home. And hopefully, it will relieve the immense suffering of the people of Gaza, 2.3 million maybe still.
Now, that said, I would agree then with Yossi, where do we go from there? And I think the mere fact that it was a unilateral ultimatum that brought
them to the table, there's no way it can be the pathway forward. So, I think we shouldn't be over-enthusiastic.
AMANPOUR: So, what are you saying? You're saying that President Trump knocked heads together -- and is that the unilateral ultimatum?
MCTERNAN: Several months ago, the last time we spoke, I said there was one person, Donald Trump, who could actually deliver what he has done.
AMANPOUR: Right, and he's done it.
MCTERNAN: But the question is whether he has the political and moral courage to take the next step.
AMANPOUR: OK. All right. So, that's the question, and that's a fair question, whether they'll be followed through. And that's always the issue,
isn't it? It's always the issue. But to the issue of Hamas, because you've dealt with them a lot, the political side, Dr. Ahmed Youssef, who I in fact
met with you, former adviser to the assassinated leader Ismail Haniyeh, has written, factions must evolve. He means Palestinian factions must evolve
into political parties that compete under pluralistic norms rather than cling to resistant movement logic. Only then can Palestinian politics align
with principles of representation, accountability, and collective purpose.
That's quite far-leaning, right? I mean, he's basically saying that we shouldn't continue in this resistance mode and --
MCTERNAN: I think there were many in Hamas who realized that long before October the 7th. In fact, in August 2023, we had a meeting in Khan Younis
with all of the parties. There were Hamas, there was Islamic Jihad, new Fatah, old Fatah. And what people were recognizing, the time had come that
Hamas should take a step back.
They were hoping to have municipal elections in Gaza in November, and they would go on a joint manifesto. So, it didn't matter who won the election,
they would work together to implement this manifesto. And it was, I thought, a moment of great hope. And I think that is possible. It is
possible to revive that. And I think it is the only way forward.
AMANPOUR: OK. And, Hossein Agha, who has worked, you know, a lot on this issue, and you've just written a book with Rob Malley, the former U.S.
negotiator. We quoted the name of the book. What do you think and what do you see as the chinks of light and the potential stumbling blocks right
now?
HOSSEIN AGHA, FORMER PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: I think it's a very important day. I think it is a breakthrough, but it is a ceasefire. It's not a
roadmap to a peace, a permanent peace between the two peoples, between Israel and the Palestinians.
But still, there is a lot in it for the Palestinians that they didn't have before. One is the end of the slaughter. Second is the death of the idea of
deporting the Palestinians from Gaza, the resuming humanitarian aid, giving up the idea of annexing the West Bank, giving up the idea -- the crazy idea
of total victory. All these, I think, are measurable and are important returns from Trump's attempt on this plan.
But where do you go from here? Every time there is a breakdown between Israel and Gaza, every time there's violence, the world comes around. You
have meetings in Sharm el-Sheikh. Usually, you get the president of France, the prime minister of Britain, American representatives, and they all
promise all kinds of things, not dissimilar to what's being promised now. And it never happened.
But there is a difference now. The difference now is that this is not an agreement between Hamas and Israel. This is not an agreement between
President Trump and Hamas and Israel. Effectively, it is an agreement between President Trump and the countries of Turkey and Qatar. Turkey and
Qatar are representing Hamas. Hamas will accept anything that Turkey and Qatar will ask it to accept.
[13:40:00]
And therefore, Hamas no longer seeks a bilateral guarantee from the United States that the war will not be resumed. It is depending on the relation
between President Trump and President Erdogan and the Emir of Qatar that a war will not be resumed and that Hamas, what is agreed with Hamas, will be
honored. So, in that sense, it's new. It's new and it is more powerful than what happened before.
AMANPOUR: OK. So --
AGHA: Because we never had things -- yes, go ahead.
AMANPOUR: Go ahead, you never had things like that guaranteed?
AGHA: We never had. We never had important countries that the United States has an investment in and has a special kind of relationship with,
taking such an active role.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, Yossi --
AGHA: And there's a big general talk --
AMANPOUR: Yes. Let me just ask Yossi this, because as a former Israeli negotiator, do you think that there will be a declaration of the end of
war? And do you think that this is slightly different and unique because of the big powers, or the powers, the regional powers, who've come in under,
you know, Trump getting them all together, whether it's Israel, whether it's the Arab powers, whether it's Turkey?
BEILIN: Yes, first of all, I agree. This is the new situation. Things have happened and things were changed in the Middle East. But the biggest and
most important variable is the presence of the American president and the way he dealt with things. I don't always like his behavior, I must admit,
between us, but what he did here was a tough step, which worked in order to achieve the phase one of the plan.
I think that in order to get to the other chapters, and especially to decide what is going to happen on the ground, I mean, who will really
replace Hamas, if it was -- it will be replaced, because they are not ready to be replaced so soon.
So, this is a huge work, and I'm glad that Trump is coming to the region, and I hope that it is not only a visit, but it is a working visit in order
to deal with the second step. This is the most important thing right now.
AMANPOUR: 100 percent. I hear you. Yes.
BEILIN: I'm really sorry, by the way, when we are speaking about the steps which were taken today and the release of prisoners, that Israel refused to
free Marwan Barghouti. I think that it was one of the big mistakes of Israel. For the short run, yes, he's -- he was a terrorist. I mean, I knew
him very well. He supported peace, and at a certain moment in 2000, in May 2000, he changed his mind because of his competition with Hamas. I will not
personally forgive him for that.
But he is the most popular Palestinian right now, and he is the hope of those who want to have an agreement at the end of the day.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
BEILIN: Only people who don't want an agreement with Palestinians would keep him in prison right now.
AMANPOUR: OK. That is really interesting. Only people who don't want an agreement with the Palestinians, who don't want a Palestinian State, would
keep him in prison, says former negotiator Yossi Beilin. That's really interesting, because this has been a stumbling block for a long time.
The disarmament process, you've worked with all sorts of conflict resolution, I mean, including in Northern Ireland you've taken, you know,
members of this conflict around as well. After the Good Friday Peace Accord, it did take years to disarm, to actually disarm the IRA, right?
It's not something that's going to happen in a week or a day or a month.
MCTERNAN: Well, there's still groups in Northern Ireland that are not disarmed, but the political life goes on. I think Yossi raised the crucial
question, who will replace Hamas? Now, what worries me about this current proposal on the table is that it reflects too much the 2003 plan after the
fall of Saddam. The debartification (ph), all of those things, you see it there, outside government coming in. It was the government ruling Iraq.
Now, the consequences of that we know only too well. It gave rise to ISIS, and I fear we shouldn't underestimate that in Gaza.
[13:45:00]
The second point about that plan, it reflects nothing of international law, and in particular, the human right, the basic human right of Palestinians
to have their own state, to have real agency, not a state on paper, and to be able to determine their own future.
Now, I think when I said, does President Trump have the political and moral courage to take the next step, it's simply end of occupation. Israel will
only have the security it desires and has a right to when the International Community have the courage to say enough, occupation has to end, we have to
have a real Palestinian State.
AMANPOUR: Oliver McTernan, Yossi Beilin, and Hossein Agha, I wish we could carry on. It's really fascinating with all your expertise and perspectives.
Another day.
President Trump has been speaking about the deal at a cabinet meeting. Here's what he's just said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: They've agreed to things, and I think it's going to move along pretty well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But what is phase two? When does it begin?
TRUMP: Well, I'm not going to talk about that because you sort of know what phase two is, but we will -- there will be disarming, there will be
pullbacks, there'll be a lot of things that are happening. You know, I gave you a whole list of 22 different things that will happen -- will take
place, and I think it'll take place, and I think you're going to end up with peace in the Middle East.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: We'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: French President Emmanuel Macron has played a central role in Middle East diplomacy. His work with Saudi Arabia to rally global support
for a two-state solution helped shape critical aspects of Donald Trump's 20-point peace plan. Sylvie Bermann was France's ambassador to the U.K., to
Russia, and to China, and she's joining us now from Paris. Ambassador, welcome to the program.
And there are announcements of meetings in Paris to try to fill in the details and help construct the so-called day after, the two-state issue.
Where do you stand on this and what do you think Europe can do, particularly France?
SYLVIE BERMANN, FORMER FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO U.K.: Well, I think Europe can do a lot of things and could contribute to the stabilization process with
some peace forces. We don't know if it's going to be a U.N. peace forces or others. Obviously, Europe would contribute also to the reconstruction of
Gaza and it's better to work together. I know that Donald Trump is planning to establish a kind of peace board and so while Europeans would like to be
part of it.
AMANPOUR: Let's just talk about what you said, a U.N. peacekeeping force. I mean, one assumes that Israel would not accept that. They don't believe
the U.N. is an honest broker when it comes to them. And there has been talk about maybe a joint Arab peacekeeping force into Alia. What do you think
would be the best?
BERMANN: Well, it could be an Arab peacekeeping force, I think that would be good. But there's also the participation of -- the possibility of
participation of other countries. If not a U.N. mission, it could be a kind of coalition of the willing. I think a lot of things are possible.
[13:50:00]
AMANPOUR: And given your experience, obviously, as a French ambassador, do you believe that Macron's, you know, serious and diligent work to getting
this conference along with Saudi Arabia, the whole idea of sort of supercharging Palestinian statehood and then President Trump at the same
U.N. General Assembly meeting with all the Arab leaders and hearing from them as well, how much of a role do you think Macron's plan played in this
moment now?
BERMANN: Well, it's difficult to say because I think Donald Trump had already a plan. But I think if you want to have a future for Palestine and
for the security of Israel as well, you need a two-state solution. Maybe, well, it's opposed for the time being by the Israelis, but in the future,
it's absolutely necessary. And the French president has worked a lot with all Arab countries. Well, of course, Donald Trump as well. But it could be
complementary.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about the internal chaos in your country. And obviously, it implicates Macron, his leadership, at least at home. Where do
you think that's going to lead? And do you think if he gets into more domestic political trouble, it'll compromise his role on the international
stage, whether it's over this, whether it's over support for Ukraine and those big issues?
BERMANN: Well, I think, obviously, it weakens the image of France. But he has still responsibilities as the international affairs are concerned. So,
he can still play a role. But anyway, he should appoint a new prime minister and try to find a solution by the end of the year, because it's
necessary to adopt the budget.
AMANPOUR: And do you think it's possible? Do you think there will be a compromise? Because the latest prime minister resigned after less than a
month because he couldn't get anybody to agree.
BERMANN: Yes, not all the parties are not in a compromised mood because, in fact, they're just looking at the next presidential election in 2027.
And they're not really interested by the situation of the country. But the outgoing prime minister had contacts with all of them, those last two days.
And apparently, he said that there is an agreement, well, to avoid dissolution and also to find an agreement on the budget. It doesn't mean
that it's going to be a coalition government, but he thinks there's a way towards compromise on the budgetary issue.
AMANPOUR: OK. And if that happens, what does that mean for the far-right party of Marine Le Pen? Because they're ahead in the polls. And clearly,
Macron doesn't want to allow, you know, them to take over.
BERMANN: Absolutely. And in fact, this party, the National Rally, they want dissolution because, of course, well, the polls are in their favor.
But it's not what other parties want.
AMANPOUR: Interesting. And one very brief. We've got 30 seconds. You know Russia. How do you think Putin will look at what's going on in the Middle
East right now? Will it encourage him to negotiate an end to his war?
BERMANN: Probably not now. I think he's not ready to put an end to this war because he thinks that he can still win. But I'm pretty sure that
Donald Trump, after the success in Gaza, if there's a lot of things to do, he will come back to the situation in Ukraine. And he will continue. He
might be erratic in his methods, but again, he has consistency of ideas.
AMANPOUR: Really interesting. Thank you, Ambassador Bermann, for joining us. And finally, a poem about the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and the
deep loss among Israeli hostage families. The author, 95-year-old Theodor Meron, has lived nothing short of a remarkable life. After surviving the
Holocaust as a child, he went on to become president of the War Crimes Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. His memoir is set to release in January
2026.
Now, you saw that I pointed out what Sharone Lifschitz had given me, this yellow cactus for the hostages in Israel. Meron sent me this poem just
hours before the ceasefire deal was announced. And he calls it a requiem for Gaza's children. Here's an extract.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): The barbarity of October 7, God saw it from heaven. But he did not stop the horrors, leaving them to cruel warriors. Gaza
bombed out, collapsed, burning houses, black-robed mothers crying to heavens for the loss of their progeny, levins. Left unanswered by Almighty
God, how could he let it happen on his watch?
[13:55:00]
Emaciated hostages clinging to life in dark tunnels, desperate strife, praying for light and families' embrace and safe return to the grace. Fear,
despair, and pain were our prayers in vain, dark clouds sending a dark omen for suffering and trauma, so common.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (on camera): As a young man, Ted Meron was legal adviser to the Israeli foreign ministry after the six-day war in 1967. And he warned the
government of the day that Israel's occupation of the West Bank would not be viewed as legal under international law. He was ignored, and the rest is
history.
That's it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
