Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
Interview with Haaretz Journalist and "The Gates of Gaza" Author Amir Tibon; Interview with UNICEF Spokesperson James Elder; Interview with Palestinian Peace Activist Aziz Abu Sarah; Interview with "This Boy We Made" Author Taylor Harris. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 07, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
Israel marks a grim anniversary. Two years since the Hamas attacks that forever changed the nation. I speak with October 7th survivor, the esteemed
Israeli journalist, Amir Tibon. And we revisit testimony from former hostages held by Hamas.
Also, on the ground in Gaza, UNICEF spokesman James Elder shares what he's seeing in Khan Younis and how war has ravaged the enclave.
Then, Palestinian peace activist Aziz Abu Sarah on looking for light in the darkness.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAYLOR HARRIS, AUTHOR, "THIS BOY WE MADE": Autism for me has been so different because of how it can look in kids like mine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- "This Boy We Made," writer Taylor Harris, tells Michel Martin what it's like to be autistic and raise autistic children in the era
of RFK Jr.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
We begin in the Middle East, where a push towards peace is underway in Egypt, as key negotiators from Israel, Hamas, and the United States are
looking to find common ground and reach agreement on President Donald Trump's 20-point plan to end the war. Hamas and Israel have both voiced
support. Here's Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Trump says that they are very close to reaching a deal, but optimism continues to grow, yet huge obstacles remain. I want to get to one of those
who, in Israel, not only has been covering this war as a journalist for two years now, but also was a victim that day as his kibbutz was so brutally
attacked.
Let's bring in Amir Tibon -- or actually I'm so sorry, let's go to Jeremy Diamond, who is in Hostage Square. Jeremy, you have been covering this war.
I believe the assignment where you moved to Israel, covering the region, began just a day or two before October 7th. And this is the story you began
your coverage with. You've spent time on the ground there, covering and speaking with hostage family members, everyday Israelis who've been touched
by this horrific day, and obviously the war that began a few weeks after October 7, 2023, in Gaza.
Let's just start where you are right now, in Hostage Square, and talk to us about what this second-year marks for so many still waiting for this war to
come to an end and the hostages to come home.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Bianna, on the two-year anniversary of October 7th, it is a somber mood here in Hostage Square and
across Israel as Israelis commemorate the day when two years ago thousands of Hamas militants stormed across the border into Israel and killed nearly
1,200 people, the majority of whom were civilians. They were slaughtered in their homes. They were killed in bomb shelters as they huddled for safety
from rockets and also, of course, at that NOFA music festival in southern Israel. And more than 250 people were also taken hostage on that day, 48 of
whom remain in captivity inside of Gaza.
And today, mixed with that somber mood, is also a sense of hope, a sense of optimism that perhaps these negotiations happening in Sharm el-Sheikh, in
Egypt, will potentially yield an end of the war and the return of those 48 hostages, 20 of whom are believed to be alive.
You can see behind me here that Israelis are seated together. They are really huddling, holding themselves together in this moment. They're
listening to music right now in Hostages Square, just spending time taking it all in, taking stock of what has taken place over the last two years.
[13:05:00]
But unlike, you know, with other terrorist attacks where you have commemorations years later, Israelis are still very much in that moment of
trauma, in that moment of war that continues two years later inside of the Gaza Strip as well, and also, still two years later, continuing to fight.
I've been spending a lot of time -- over the weekend I spent time with Vicky Cohen, the mother of Nimrod Cohen, an Israeli soldier who was taken
captive on that day and is one of those 48 still held in Gaza. And I can tell you that they will continue to fight until the moment when they come
home.
Even right now, even with that hope and optimism, they feel it's important to continue to hold the Israeli government's feet to the fire. And so, amid
these commemorations, we are also seeing continuation of demonstrations from those hostage families who are continuing to demand that this Israeli
government follow through in these negotiations and actually reach a conclusion, a positive conclusion that will bring those loved ones home and
end the war in Gaza once and for all. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. It is a reminder of how small that country is and how every single person in Israel has been touched in some way, shape or form
by the tragedy and the horrific attack of October 7th and the war that has ensued after that. And so, many of them have come every single week to that
square where you are right now and demanding the hostages come home, seeking peace, seeking some sort of resolution so the country can start to
heal. Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much.
And earlier I spoke with Omer Shem Tov, who was held hostage in Gaza for 505 days after being abducted by Hamas from the Nova Music Festival on
October 7th. He joined me from Hostages Square in Tel Aviv and gave me his memories of that extremely difficult day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OMER SHEM TOV, HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA FOR 505 DAYS: I remember me and two of my friends running for our lives, seeing people just getting shot
everywhere, bodies everywhere we ran to. I remember as we got into a vehicle and we tried to run away, but the Hamas terrorists, they stopped us
in the middle of the road. Immediately they started shooting us. They didn't give much notice if we were soldiers, if we were citizens, they just
started shooting us immediately.
And I remember two of my friends getting shot. One of them, he started running away. Unfortunately, he was also kidnapped and he was brutally
murdered while in captivity. But, you know, I remember that day so clearly. Today, when I woke up in the morning, everything just flew past me. And
it's crazy to think that we're two years into it and there are still hostages there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Amir Tibon has been following this all too closely as well, not only as a correspondent for Haaretz, but also as a survivor of October 7th.
That day he was sheltering with his family as Hamas attacked his home in Kibbutz Nahal Oz and was eventually rescued by his own father, Naum, a
retired general who drove from Tel Aviv to save his family.
Amir wrote about it all in his book, "The Gates of Gaza." His father's act of bravery is also the subject of a new documentary, "The Road Between Us."
Amir, welcome to the program. And, you know, you're a very familiar face for our viewers because you come on typically as a reporter to give us the
latest updates on the war and the situation with the hostages and any sort of agreement on that front.
But today is different now. It is the two-year mark of that horrific day where you as a father, as an Israeli, as a son, as a husband, were
sheltering in your safe room for hours, for hours, waiting for the military that never came. Instead, it came in the form of your father, a former
military general, to rescue you.
As we are two years now after that horrific day, how does this commemoration today differ for you from even last year's?
AMIR TIBON, HAARETZ JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR, "THE GATES OF GAZA": Bianna, first of all, I want to thank you for continuing to highlight October 7 and
the suffering of the hostages and the urgency of rescuing them and bringing them back to their families, including my neighbor and friend Omri Miran,
who was kidnapped from his home in Kibbutz Nahal Oz, a civilian community on the border with Gaza, kidnapped in front of the eyes of his two young
daughters. And we are still fighting two years later to bring him back alive to his family. It's quite shocking that we've reached two years and
he's still not with us.
[13:10:00]
In terms of the memory, this is a difficult day for everybody. It's a day when we remember the catastrophe of what happened on October 7. We also
remember the courage and bravery of the individuals, the soldiers, the policemen, the civilians who did come and fight.
And you were right to say that the military as an organization failed on October 7, but I do want to mention that a lot of young soldiers and some
older ones as well showed great acts of courage and did everything they could to rescue civilians, also in my community. And so, it's a very
complicated day because there is a level of anger toward the government and the military for the failure, but also a lot of appreciation for the people
who did come and fight and some of them lost their lives.
And I think the most important mission is to make October 7 end. And October 7 will only end when we reach a deal to bring back the hostages and
finish the war, because until that happens, we are still in October 7.
GOLODRYGA: And you're right to point out the bravery of individuals there. We should also note that I believe several hundred soldiers died that day
as well fighting the Hamas terrorists. And since the war began, I think that number is close to a thousand at this point, some 900 total.
TIBON: Indeed.
GOLODRYGA: Let's talk about your story in the sense of you deciding to write this book, "The Gates of Gaza," which I was fortunate enough to be
asked to blurb. It's a fantastic book. You merge the events and the trauma of October 7 with the trauma and the hope that went into the inception of
the kibbutz, Nahal Oz, right there on the border with Gaza that was built decades prior with the hopes of a younger generation of coexistence and
living side by side with neighbors. There were days of great optimism over the course of those decades and obviously sorrow as well.
Why was it important for you to not only write a book about the tragedy that you and your family experienced that day, but about the bigger picture
of the project, that is the kibbutzim that were built right along the border with Gaza?
TIBON: Well, when I decided to write about October 7, and it took me some time, but when I decided to write about it, I knew that I wanted to write
it in English because my urge and perhaps my mission was to tell the world what had happened.
And you know, Bianna, from October 8 already, there were people who denied and minimized and even justified the atrocities of October 7. And I wanted
to put out a story of what happened, a story of a family, of a community, and perhaps also of a country, but from a very personal and communal point
of view.
But I realized that if I want to tell this story to an international audience, and this book has been published in English, and it's been
translated into German and French and Italian and Romanian and other languages, I realized that if I wanted to tell the world about it, I have
to also bring the history, because you cannot understand October 7 without understanding what is Hamas, what are the kibbutzim, these small
agricultural communities on the border that were attacked on October 7.
You need to learn the history of the relationship between Israel and Gaza, the conflict, the days of optimism and the peace process, the failures, the
relationship between Netanyahu, the prime minister, and Hamas, because for many years he had a policy of emboldening Hamas and strengthening Hamas,
and even asking different countries to give money to Hamas. So, all of that is part of the story. And if you want to understand what happened on that
day, the history has to be a big part of the story.
And the way I did it in the book is for every chapter of October 7, there is then a history chapter, and the history is told through the personal
stories of my neighbors, people from my kibbutz. It's not just kind of like, you know, running through the events, but it's telling the history
through the personal life experience of people who have been living on the border, through the wars, through the peace days, through the optimism and
the pessimism, and explaining through their stories how we got to October 7.
GOLODRYGA: I see there that you currently are in the north of the country, the northern part of Israel. The kibbutzim are all in the south, as was
Nahal Oz. And I wonder if you are planning at some point to go back to Nahal Oz.
[13:15:00]
And the reason I ask specifically today is I just listened to an incredibly powerful interview with Eli Sharabi, who was also a hostage that was
released several months ago to find out that his wife and daughters were murdered on October 7. He was taken from Kibbutz Be'eri, and he said that
he's grateful that his wife and daughters were not buried there, and that while he loved the memories that they formed while living on Be'eri, the
next chapter of his life will not be there. Where will the next chapter of your life be?
TIBON: First of all, because you mentioned him, I have to say that Eli has been a hero for many in Israel and around the world, for his advocacy for
the hostages who are still held in Gaza, also for his very important demand that there will be a commission of inquiry in Israel to investigate the
failures of October 7, something that, unbelievably, the Netanyahu government has refused to do for two years now. And he famously said that
putting up such a commission to investigate the failures so that we can learn and improve, it's not a left-wing issue and it's not a right-wing
issue, it's just about being straight with the people. So, just a word about Eli.
And regarding our own family, we are planning to return to Nahal Oz. I've been to the house many, many times since October 7. I go there every week,
basically. We renovated the house. It looks completely new. We -- all the bullet holes, all the broken glass, all the hand grenades, everything that
was done to our house, we completely took care of it. It's a beautiful home.
We are waiting for the war to end because Nahal Oz is very close to Gaza. And at night and also during the day, you have massive explosions all the
time. It's very traumatic. It's not good for our children who lived through October 7. It's not good for anybody.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
TIBON: And we are pushing for the war to end, first of all for the hostages who need to be saved, then for any prospect of peace in the
future, and also, so that we could go back home, because that's what, right now, is keeping us out of our home at the moment.
GOLODRYGA: And I would imagine waiting for your friend Omri Miran to come home as well, his sister --
TIBON: That's number one. That's number one, the hostages.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and his wife has been traveling. I believe she's in the U.S. or was in the U.S. this week, continuing to advocate for his release.
And we know the conditions that the hostages are being held in right now in tunnels, barely alive. We've seen some of the horrific propaganda videos
released by Hamas, can only imagine the torture that they are enduring.
And I'd like to play some sound from Christiane's earlier interview with a former hostage, Nili Margalit, who described suffocating under some of
those tunnels. Here's what she said to Christiane at the time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: I honestly can't imagine what it would be like to be trapped and caught into a tunnel like
that, so far underground, probably very little fresh air, very little ability to move. What was it like for you? Did you feel you were going to
suffocate? Did you think you were -- were you frightened of the tunnels?
NILI MARGALIT, FORMER ISRAELI HOSTAGE: We were in a tunnel which was about 40 meters underground. So, oxygen was very little. We were -- the -- it was
-- we felt like we were suffocating all the time. It was really hard to breathe. And also, because there was a lot of elderly people with me, then
it had other effects. You know, it was hard for them to breathe. Someone had asthma, which makes it harder to breathe. The smell is terrible. People
were wounded when they were taken, when they were abducted from their home. So, the healing of the wounds in an environment without enough oxygen, it
took a lot longer than it normally takes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Amir, that interview was over a year ago, and she had been thankfully released months prior to that. So, one can only imagine what the
experience is like for the remaining hostages. Just, again, we cannot speak enough about them, so I want to leave these last few seconds for you to
tell our viewers and the world about why it's so important from a humanity standpoint, not only to bring your friend home, but to bring them all home.
TIBON: Yes. This is not an Israeli issue. This is a humanitarian issue. This is an issue for the world. Of course, for us Israelis, it's the most
important thing, but it's really an issue for humanity. And I want to urge the Trump administration, the president, and everybody who is involved, get
these negotiations done. Get a deal this time.
[13:20:00]
Some things may have to be amended, some things may have to change, but don't leave Egypt without an agreement, because if we renew the war after
already securing some kind of a pause, I don't want to imagine what will be the consequences. So, don't let anyone sabotage these negotiations. Let's
get a deal this time. It's urgent. We have to do it.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, we do. Amir Tibon, thank you for everything you've been doing to advocate for an end to this war and the hostages coming home as
well. My best to you and your family and your father and daughters and wife, everyone. Appreciate you taking the time to join us today.
TIBON: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: For Palestinians inside Gaza, the past two years has brought an unprecedented level of death and destruction as Israel responded to the
Hamas attacks of October 7th with overwhelming force. More than 67,000 people are believed to have been killed in Gaza. Many more have been
injured or lacking basic necessities.
So, as negotiations for an end to the war continue in Egypt right now, what would a ceasefire mean for the people on the ground and what aid is most
urgently needed now? Let's bring in James Elder, a spokesperson for UNICEF, who joins the program live from Khan Younis in Gaza. James, welcome to the
program. I don't even know how many times, how many times have you been to Gaza since October 7th, 2023?
JAMES ELDER, UNICEF SPOKESPERSON: Hey, Bianna. This is my sixth time since the horrors of October 7th.
GOLODRYGA: Your sixth time. You're in Khan Younis right now. We've talked and covered the devastation there. I'm wondering, because it's so important
each time you're there for us, for you to walk us through and explain what have you seen this latest visit?
ELDER: Yes, everyone has gone beyond rock bottom. I don't know how people continue right now, Bianna, that mix between the immense physical pain that
people have got, having lost everything, having everything taken away from them, and on top of that, the psychological trauma.
But to try and give a sense of that, let me just, the first half hour, my first half hour going back into a hospital, which was in the middle area,
in Deir al-Balah, Bianna, first half hour. I was in a tent outside and there were three children, three little children, all who'd been shot by
quadcopters, one of them getting water, one of them playing, one of them trying to get wood. No children here are in school, that bedrock,
education, no children are in school. Those three children shot by a quadcopter.
I go into the hospital. There's no other way to explain it. It's a war zone. There are children and the elderly, let's not forget the elderly, in
hospital corridors, bleeding, screaming, despite doctors and nurses running 24 hours a day, who also spend their nights living in tents, because their
homes have been destroyed.
There was a little boy on the floor who'd been shot. He'd been there for five hours, his mom said. Finally, Bianna, they got him onto a stretcher.
The doctors put a yellow blanket on his child if they're critical, a blue one if they will die within an hour if they don't get help. He got taken
away.
Then a little girl came in, Sham (ph), a five-year-old girl, who had just been pulled from the rubble with all that look of terror and dust and ash
on her. She was OK. Doctors worked out no internal injuries, but no one had yet, at that point, told her that her mom and her dad had been -- her mom
and her sister, rather, had been killed in that attack.
[13:25:00]
And then, Bianna, it's within half an hour, I go into the ICU. There's a little six-year-old girl, Ira (ph). I'm really noticing her because she's
got these beautiful bobs. So, you know, her parent has really cared for her on that day of the airstrike. But she's in a critical condition, as the
doctor's explaining her situation. Ira (ph) dies. Ira (ph) dies in front of us. This was 30 minutes in Gaza, Bianna. That's not an irregular 30
minutes, that's just any 30 minutes here, as it has been for two years.
GOLODRYGA: And now, as the world is focused on this war hopefully coming to an end, this 20-point plan that the president has presented, that Prime
Minister Netanyahu has signed off on, that Hamas appears to have signed off on as well, but we are still, obviously, waiting for negotiators to work
out the final points. What are you hearing from Palestinians there on the ground about how hopeful, perhaps, they are that this time will actually be
the end of the war? How much are they aware of what's going on in Egypt?
ELDER: Very aware. You know, this is one of the most literate societies on the planet, one of the highest literacy rates. Education has been a bedrock
here for Palestinians. It's a reason they have consistently recovered from atrocities, not just in the last two years, but prior to that.
They're also, you know, very savvy. They saw many of the ceasefire agreements that they've come to learn were charades in 2024. But, Bianna,
there's a lot of hope. You know, you're talking about moms and dads who have had their home destroyed. They've lost the ability to feed their
child. They've lost the ability to care for their child. It's a very, very dark moment when a child looks into their parents' eyes and realizes mom
and dad can no longer protect me, or a parent realizes that they've lost the ability to give their child two square meals a day. They've had their
dignity taken from them. Hope is all they've got left. But they need to see concrete change on the ground.
And right now, for example, we're not seeing that. You know, we're not seeing a noticeable decline in military action. We're seeing children
killed still every day since Saturday in those statements. Where I am, there's been heavy, heavy military activity today, all day today. In the
north, it's unchanged. I'm trying to get aid across.
You know, UNICEF, we're lucky. We don't just do supply-driven aid. We do education, Bianna. We do trauma. We do a lot of cash assistance. It's a
game-changer. But we've also got a society where one-third of all women are giving birth, you know, to premature or underweight babies. And we've tried
five times now to get incubators from hospitals in the north that have been evacuated to other areas. Five times. Israeli officials have denied that.
Five times.
I'm looking at babies down here in the south where there's three premature babies on a bed, just trying to get incubators. And they've been denied
coming into the Gaza Strip since March 2024. So, you know, people need to see that change. But, yes, they're holding on to hope, Bianna. It's all
they've got.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And after especially pressure from the West after that blockade, Israel started allowing more supplies to come in. But obviously,
this 20-point plan would see an end to the fighting and a flood of humanitarian aid rushed through.
In the meantime, we still talk about how chaotic things are on the ground without much order. I know that a UNICEF aid truck was robbed at gunpoint
in Gaza City about two weeks ago. Just talk to us about the difficulty, again, with Hamas still, I would imagine, the ruling authority there, as
weakened as they are, and no one to replace them, how difficult it is for aid organizations like yours to bring in whatever you can without the
concern of being injured, hurt and robbed yourself.
ELDER: It's a very dangerous place to work. You've got multiple challenges here, Bianna. You've got more U.N. workers have been killed here by Israeli
bombardments in any war since World War II. You've got a consistent obstruction of aid coming into the Gaza Strip. So, even when we get aid in,
you know, the damage is being done. You don't now just suddenly turn around. You've got such a level of malnourished moms and malnourished
babies. So, an immense amount has to be done.
And then, yes, to your question, when we get aid in, instead of being allowed, you know, multiple routes, because -- you know, when you've got
economics of scarcity, such deprivation, you get looting. When -- during the ceasefire, when aid was allowed to flow and we had 400 distribution
points, there was no black market because there was food and medicines and hygiene kits and soap in the market. Without that, when we're only allowed
one route, it's like the system's been created for looting and so on.
And I don't know -- we don't quite know who controls. Certainly, there's been -- you know, there's been an effort almost to create chaos here. So,
no one's quite sure who is in control. But certainly, certainly, Bianna, brave colleagues day in, day out are trying to get aid across the Gaza
Strip.
[13:30:00]
And we know what works because we saw it in the ceasefire. Give us multiple entry points, four or five across Israel, allow aid to flow. And then when
we're in, abide by international humanitarian law, let Israel facilitate us on multiple routes. That's what we do. That's when we change the game. And
that's when we see all the indicators you want as humanitarians. You know, malnutrition to go down, access to water to go up. Ceasefire, it's the
game, as we heard from your last guest, Amir.
You know, during ceasefires, we've had more than 150,000 go home. End that abhorrence. Go back to their loved ones. I can't imagine that moment. Under
military means, it's been less than 10. So, ceasefires speak to children, you know, going to bed at night, not being bombed and getting nutritious
food and hostages going home. It's not as complicated as leaders make out.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And everyone, I think, can agree that once this is all over, that new leadership, not Hamas, will hopefully be there helping to
govern the days and weeks ahead as the road to rebuilding is going to take a long, long time. James Elder, thank you so much. Really appreciate the
time.
Well, if the fighting ends, where do we go from here? The trauma and violence of October 7th and the overwhelming force of Israel's response,
including extensive allegations of war crimes, makes it hard to see any light amid the darkness. One person who is urging us not to abandon our
humanity is Palestinian peace activist Aziz Abu Sarah. And Aziz joins me again from the program.
Aziz, I remember our conversation as if it were yesterday. It was, in fact, a little over a year ago, the last time you and I spoke alongside your
friend from Israel, Maoz Inon. It was a very emotional and passionate conversation. And yet here we are, still awaiting for this terrible war and
the trauma after October 7th to finally begin to end, where people can truly heal.
And you're an important voice to hear from, because you've said you first learned the meaning of revenge after your brother was killed during the
first intifada shot by Israeli soldiers. And you spent years then wanting to hurt back. And then you changed. And you've been sending a very
different message. And for those that didn't have the opportunity to hear that message from you last year when we spoke, it's now two years since
October 7th. Can you share that message with our viewers today?
AZIZ ABU SARAH, PALESTINIAN PEACE ACTIVIST: Thank you, Bianna. And you're right. My brother was killed when I was 10 years old. He was actually
tortured in an Israeli prison. And so, I grew up very angry, very bitter. And as you can imagine, a 10-year-old seeing his brother killed, the only
thought I even had in my mind was revenge.
But I realized when I was 18 years old, it took me eight years to come to the conclusion that every time I chose vengeance, I was being a slave to
the person who killed my brother. And I wanted to be free from that person, that what I do is not a reaction to what they did, but rather it's what I
want to do. Rather, it's up to me to change and shape the future and not be doomed and controlled by the actions of those who killed my brother.
And so, since then, that has been my work, is trying to spread that message and trying to make sure that justice, equality, dignity, peace are what the
values that we're trying to normalize in Palestine and in Israel, and working with Palestinians and Israelis exactly for those values, including
with Maoz Inon, who I talked with last year in your show, where the two of us -- his parents were killed on October 7th, and the two of us have come
together to say, look at us, we are two people who've lost our loved ones, and we understand that there is no future with bombs and there's no future
with killing and there's no future with hurting one another. And unfortunately, since last year, what we have seen is just worse than we
could even imagine.
And so, I mean, the -- I was listening to the interview you had earlier, and it breaks my heart as I have so many friends in Gaza who have lost
their entire family, so many friends who have no homes to go back to. And this is the reality we live in today that doesn't create a more peaceful
tomorrow.
GOLODRYGA: You said with Maoz, when you were on with him last year, and again, two men who have both suffered tremendous loss, you losing your
brother, Moaz losing his parents on October 7th, and standing together and choosing reconciliation over revenge. And you said to me then, we must not
wait for the war to end to try to build peace. And I know you said that that journey to follow through on those powerful words has been even more
difficult over this past year.
[13:35:00]
But I'd like to think that you are still on that path. And if so --
ABU SARAH: Absolutely.
GOLODRYGA: If so, tell our viewers what continues to give you strength and humanity today.
ABU SARAH: Look, war is the absence of peace. War is the absence of justice. And we understand that the only way to change reality is by
creating justice and creating peace. And actually, both in the Quran and in the Bible, the Torah, it talks about pursuing justice and peace. These are
two main elements that we must do. And we can't leave those things to politicians. Because as we all know, if we leave it only up to politicians,
we will not have peace and justice.
So, it must be us, the people also speaking up, going out in the streets, and meeting with each other, working together, and making sure that our
communities, our peoples are pressuring our politicians, making sure that our investments, that our actions, that our policies are ones that create
peace. We cannot invest in war and expect peace.
Martin Luther King Jr. said, wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrow. And I think that's exactly what gives me hope, is that we coming
together, we -- often Maon and I say, hope is an action. And by coming together, by working together, by believing in a better tomorrow, and by
doing everything we can ourselves, that's how you create hope.
You don't do it by scroll -- doom scrolling kind of in your home and Instagram and seeing a lot just of horrible things and do nothing about it.
By going out, by working together, that's how we make, and that's how we get hope.
GOLODRYGA: You and Maoz, and we just showed videos of you meeting with Pope Francis, traveling the world, spreading this message. You said to me
at the time, our politicians have lost their imagination. So, quickly, I'd like to get an honest assessment from you on how you view this 20-point
peace plan that is currently being negotiated. It seems to be the last best hope for a ceasefire right now, and the return of the hostages. It calls
for a phase ceasefire and a new joint authority in Gaza. Your view on this proposal?
ABU SARAH: Look, anything that can stop the killing is something I welcome. Like most Palestinians I know, even international lawyers and so
on, I know, look at what's happening in Gaza and describe it as a genocide. It's horrific. And so, anything that can bring peace, that can get people
out of captivity, that can bring quiet, that is good.
However, the 20-piece plan does not fully solve the problem. It is a band- aid. It is good for a ceasefire. And the problem that we've had so far with former agreements and prior agreements is everyone tries to do this band-
aid, oh, let's just stop the issue right now, fix the problem right now, but not really deal with the root issues and not really have a lasting just
peace between Israelis and Palestinians. And as long as we continue to just do half, really a more ceasefire agreement, we will end up where we are
today, unfortunately, in five, in 10, 20 years.
Look, I've lost my brother, but I've lost many other people also in my family and friends, and like Maoz and like Yonatan (ph), other friends of
mine who've lost family members, this happens because we continue to push the ball and say, we can't right now reach a full agreement, so let's push
it to the next generation. And I say, it's criminal. It's a criminal of us to say, let's push it to the next generation. I don't want my nieces and
nephews and Maoz's children have to deal with our failures.
GOLODRYGA: Too many generations have suffered, and the focus now should be on ending this war and bringing those hostages home and trying to get some
semblance of peace to the region. Aziz Abu Sarah, thank you so much for joining us.
ABU SARAH: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
GOLODRYGA: Wish Maoz could be here to give you a hug like you gave us that beautiful hug last time. We'll wait for it.
ABU SARAH: I was with him last week, and I'll be with him again next week.
GOLODRYGA: Give us -- give him our best. And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Now, the recent announcement by President Trump and his health secretary on autism places harmful burdens on parents and children with the
disorder, our next guest says. Trump and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. claimed without scientific evidence a link between autism and Tylenol used during
pregnancy. Author Taylor Harris joins Michel Martin to discuss.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Bianna. Taylor Harris, thank you so much for talking with us.
TAYLOR HARRIS, AUTHOR, "THIS BOY WE MADE": Of course. Thanks so much for having me, Michel.
MARTIN: So, you're a writer. You're a mom and a wife. I think you probably -- you've been in all these literary magazines, but I think many people
will know you from your memoir, "This Boy We Made," where you kind of chronicle, you were sort of a search to understand your son's medical
condition while also kind of reflecting on how this all plays out with race, with class, with motherhood, and so forth.
For people who aren't familiar with your story, can we just start with where you started? What is it that caused you to understand that there was
something about your boy that you didn't understand?
HARRIS: That is so hard. I would say that, you know, the book starts with "This Morning That I'll Never Forget," and it was April Fool's Day,
actually, and I remember thinking to myself, like, I wish this were a joke. But my son Christopher, who we call Tophs in the book and in real life, he
just woke up and he's sort of just staring. He doesn't say anything. He's almost two years old, and he just doesn't look like himself.
And you just have that moment, I think, as a parent, as those who mother of, wait, am I overreacting, right? You're always sort of second-guessing
yourself. Should I call the doctor? So, I do, and we make an appointment. Long story short, we find out that his blood glucose level was, like, 27,
and, you know, a low normal for you and I might be something like 70 or 80.
So, then we rushed him to the hospital. They keep him overnight. They send out labs to the Mayo Clinic, and what we expected was to hear something
like, OK, no big deal. You can manage this with a snack at bedtime. He'll outgrow it. Those labs, you know, they were fine. Although we get those
labs back, and it's just like, no, there are actually these other levels that are way off.
And so, you know, the picture I get in my head of just sort of is, like, the magician, like, pulling the scarves out of the hat, and it just sort of
felt like every new test would be like, it's not that, but this isn't completely within the realm of typical. And I'm OK sort of spoiling my own
book in that we don't find sort of, like, a neat ending.
I think, you know, as writers, you sort of want to know, is this the right -- you know, is this the right ending? Is the essay over? But we don't get
sort of that one label that I set out to look for that I thought would give me all the answers.
MARTIN: So, Taylor, how many kids do you have, and how old are they?
HARRIS: I have three, and they are 14, 13, and nine.
MARTIN: Knowing what you know now, particularly about autism, because two of your kids have autism diagnoses, is that the way it is for a lot of
people, or was that -- is it different now since your kids are a little older now?
HILL: I spend a lot of time thinking, OK, Michel, why did I feel like I could find the one answer? What was it about my upbringing? I was raised in
the '80s, a Midwestern girl, and there was something about, I think, how I interpreted the world, which was like, you get sick -- I got like a lot of
strep throat, and it was sort of like, you get sick, you go to doctor, doctor gives you pink liquid, you feel better.
And I can even say, even as I grew up, got a little older, started having panic attacks, had a difficult time, even though I was like an A-plus
student, class president. It was then, OK, like my parents were excellent, and they were like, we're going to take you, you're going to get therapy,
you're going to get medication, you're going to do cognitive behavioral therapy.
[13:45:00]
And it still felt to me like, even though I knew I'd be living with anxiety, that there was sort of an answer or a way to get at it or to cope.
I think some of that is true now, but autism for me has been so different because it's like, because of how it can look in kids like mine and in
myself, right?
And so, you have kids who are African American, they are high masking, they're going to come into your office, they're -- I mean, Michel, if they
came to you right now, my daughter, she's a huge fan. She's like, oh my gosh, tell her I love her. And you know, she's just like this gorgeous kid,
she's athletic, right? And so, what is actually harder for me with raising autistic kids has been getting others to believe that it's actually really
hard sometimes with what they don't see.
So, I took my daughter to one appointment and I wasn't asking this doctor for a diagnosis. I was saying, oh, and you should know sort of, you know,
we got this diagnosis of autism recently. And he looked at her and he said, no, no, no you're not autistic. If you're autistic, you wouldn't be able to
ask for a glass of water. And I just see her whole face, you know, she just -- her face just -- like she just shuts down and she's thinking like, I
don't know what to make of this.
MARTIN: So, that's part of the problem here is that autism presents in a wide variety of ways. And here's a medical professional who doesn't seem to
know that, right?
HARRIS: Right.
MARTIN: Right.
HARRIS: There is so much more we need to know. People like me are drawn to social media, for instance, because some of the latest information about
what autism can look like is often like anecdotal, right? It's often someone saying like, oh, my gosh, all my life, I felt like something was
off. And here, now I have this diagnosis and now I have understanding and now I can start to figure out how to live in the world.
MARTIN: Can you just step back for a second and just as best as you can, how would you describe what autism is?
HARRIS: Yes, so I would say definitely not a disease. You know, I think that it is helpful to look at something like the DSM-5, right, because it's
often used to diagnose. And so, you know, something like a neurodevelopmental condition, other people might say it's a neurotype. You
know, if you read Steve Silberman's book, part of it is sort of this natural evolution of, you know, the human mind and brain.
And so, I think what has been difficult lately is I'm OK with a few ways of describing it, right, and we'll continue to learn more and more. But I
think, you know, seeing it as sort of like a burden on society, this thing that is an epidemic, which makes you think disease, which needs to be
eradicated, like that is completely different. There are a thousand genes marked for autism.
And so, I just want to be very careful that this can all fall under genetics in some ways, but I see it very differently than the way we hear
the administration talking about it.
MARTIN: So, this administration has characterized autism in some very dire ways. The health secretary has described it as, you know, something that
basically is devastating to people, that people who live with autism will never go on a date or, you know, never have a job. I wanted to ask, first
of all, how did you react to that when you heard that?
HARRIS: There are two reactions. One is, you know, it's almost laughable. It's sort of a spectacle. But then I have to take it somewhat seriously,
especially because this is about someone who has ideas that are not accurate, but also has power. And so, this is where I kind of go back and
forth between, well, what do I spend my time on?
So, I did want to talk to my kids about it. Obviously, I don't think it's true. I think that there are people -- autistic people, who have sort of
higher support needs maybe than I do or my kids do. You know, we often talk about autism as a spectrum, and I think people think it means you're like
more or less autistic. I sort of love the idea of it being more of like a constellation because there are all these different parts of it and some --
we all have different sort of strengths or challenges with it. And so, it's not necessarily like, oh, my kids and I live over here, and those people
are way over here.
Now, there's a way in which I could appreciate RFK Jr. if I felt like, you know what, maybe he went on like one of those listening tours and he talked
to parents of kids with high support needs, and what he's trying to do is say, hey, like, let's not forget about these families. Let's put some
funding into getting them the care that they need. But given that, like, we're looking at Medicaid cuts and things like that, it just doesn't drive
it. Like, the math isn't mathing.
[13:50:00]
And so, then what am I forced to say is like, oh, what's at stake for me and what's at stake for him? And RFK Jr. has been talking about, you know,
vaccines causing autism and things like that for 20 years. And so, is there a place to talk about how hard it can be to be autistic in this world?
Absolutely. Like, I will have that conversation all day, but I don't think at all that that is what's happening.
And so, I talk to my kids about it because I don't want them hearing clips and second-guessing who they are. And, you know, their response was, Elliot
(ph) is my oldest, and she actually prayed on the way to school. They go to a school with a lot of neurodivergent kids, and she actually prayed, like,
Lord, if someone who is autistic heard those words from RFK, like, I pray that they don't believe them, that they don't feel bad about themselves.
MARTIN: And what about people with high support needs? What is it that -- because that seems to be what RFK Jr. was talking about. What does -- how
does that tend to present?
HARRIS: Yes, I don't want to speak too much just because, you know, my kids are high maskings, right? And so, you can imagine, especially as a
black mom, I worry about my kids being out there and being seen a certain way. And that's where, again, coming back to RFK's words, I think that that
is hard. So, I won't speak for the high support needs, but I can say that my -- you know, my guess is the through line between us would be something
like exhaustion, caretaking beyond sort of what you feel capable of, especially if you're like me and you have your own limits, or feeling like
there's no book on this.
Like, I read the baby books, I read this, I read how to raise a healthy teen, like how to have screen time limits. All of those things shift with
neurodivergent kids, and there's so much more for us to learn. So, I think that that's why it's hard, like that I feel like we're going to take
resources from what could be really helpful to give parents a break if they need it, to get those kids access to education or language, whatever it is.
And it's just not, I don't think we're moving in the right direction there.
MARTIN: So, the president announced label changes discouraging Tylenol -- the main ingredient being acetaminophen, discouraging Tylenol use in
pregnancy, suggesting a link to autism and said, you know, people shouldn't use Tylenol, they should tough it out, you know, during pregnancy. How did
you hear that?
HARRIS: Part of it felt very much like watching a performance, watching a spectacle. Whatever their motive is and what they're going to do, it's
going to affect people and it's possibly going to cost lives. And so, a lot of people have been listening to that Ezra Klein, Ta-Nehisi Coates podcast
recently. And I think what comes to the forefront for me from that is this question of, like, OK. can we compromise with people who are on a different
side than us? Maybe. But how far are we willing to move?
And I think that, you know, the question Ta-Nehisi is often asking is, like, who's bearing the brunt of this? So, if Taylor Harris shows up and
says, you know, something like, well, I don't actually think Tylenol causes autism, the science doesn't really bear that out. But, you know, I support
President Trump because at least, you know, autism is back in the spotlight.
I have spent a lot of time thinking, like, can I sort of jump on that part of the very back of the wagon? And I don't think I can. I don't think I can
because I don't think that it's helpful. I don't think it's sort of like as long as autism is in the news, you know, I can sign on to that.
MARTIN: And I just want to be clear for people who may have just joined our conversation. There is no causal link that has been demonstrated
between acetaminophen and autism. So, that's clear. There are studies that suggest that something could be considered, but there is no causal link. I
want to be very clear about that. And I also want to be very clear that the currently accepted medical advice is that high fevers in pregnant women are
known to be dangerous.
There's one thing I wanted to ask you about. The CDC reported in 2023 that for the first time, black, Latino, Asian, and American Indian children are
being diagnosed with autism at higher rates than white children. And researchers suggest that could reflect improved screening. It could reflect
improved awareness in historically underserved communities. But I don't know. What -- do you have a theory about that?
[13:55:00]
HARRIS: You know, I will never say that I am the one to ask when people have done more research. But I can tell you how difficult it has been to
get diagnoses for my kids and myself. I'm diagnosed as having an anxiety disorder, which we know from the book, but also like autistic and ADHD,
which is now a term, you know, some of us say, ah, DHD. People say some terrible things online about like autism being a trend. You know, as though
someone like me walks into the doctor and is like, I won't leave until you diagnose me with autism so that I can get what benefit.
Part of what is also so important for me about my kids knowing, and I'm guessing, you know, other people of color knowing, is that if you are a
high-masking autistic, your -- you know, the rate of suicide and suicidal ideation is like exponentially higher than the general population. And I
have some ideas as to why. But this is why, you know, for some people labels don't matter, I won't argue with you on that.
This is one of the reasons why for my family I think it matters to be able to, you know, have some understanding of maybe why your brain works the way
it does or why, you know, quote/unquote, "simple things" that other people seem to do so easily are hard for you.
MARTIN: Taylor Harris, thank you so much for talking with us.
HARRIS: Thank you, Michel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And that is it for us for now. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
