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Amanpour
Interview With Journalist And Historian And "Watergate: A New History" Author Garrett Graff; Interview With Musician Jon Batiste; Interview With "Five Days At Memorial Writer, Director And Executive Producer John Ridley. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 29, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: So, the line is that I'm a dictator, but I stop crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: As Donald Trump defends his so-called crime crackdown, I ask journalists and historian Garrett Graff, how much more pressure American
democracy can take.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON BATISTE, MUSICIAN: It's the sound of the people today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Grammy Award-winning artist Jon Batiste tells me about his genre defying new album, "Big Money" and how he's reclaiming American music.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN RIDLEY, WRITER, DIRECTOR AND EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "FIVE DAYS AT MEMORIAL": There are many parts of New Orleans that have never recovered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- two decades on from Hurricane Katrina, what lessons have we learned? We revisit Christiane's conversation with award-winning director
John Ridley, examining the medical response to the disaster.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Bianna GOLODRYGA in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Armed troops on the streets of Washington, D.C., and threats from the U.S. president that more cities will soon follow. President Trump is ramping up
his anti-crime agenda with immigration raid across the country, and deportations, surging.
And Trump's critics are increasingly in the firing line, as the administration seeks to bend the U.S. legal system to its will. There's
also a grinding assault on America's cultural institutions with the White House demanding to vet future exhibitions at D.C.'s renowned Smithsonian
museums and research centers. It's a weight of evidence that has many asking, is the world's leading democracy losing the fight to protect its
founding democratic values?
My next guest says that the answer is clear and that the United States has already slipped into fascism. Garrett Graff is an author and historian and
joins me from Vermont. Garrett, it is good to see you. Quite chilling to hear these words from you. You are not known for hyperbole and foe outrage.
So, the fact that you are sounding the alarm now and the fact that you have said that this has been a pivotal week in what you've concluded has been
the U.S. term to fascism really speaks volumes. What specifically about this current environment in this week that we're in has led you to that
conclusion?
GARRETT GRAFF, JOURNALIST AND HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR, "WATERGATE: A NEW HISTORY": Yes. This is obviously something that people have been thinking
about and warning about for months, if not years in the direction that Donald Trump was leading the country and his administration. And I think a
lot of people have sort of thought about this as if there was going to be a light switch moment where everything before this moment was democracy and
everything after this moment is authoritarianism.
And of course, that's not the way that it happens. It happens through all of these subtle changes, a norm being broken here, a line blurring there, a
presidential diktat, you know, going unchallenged. And I think what we have seen over the course of this month of August is the fabric of a American
government change.
I don't know that there was a specific moment in the last two weeks where that has happened, but the continual escalation of the takeover of D.C. by
the federal law enforcement and then now armed military units, mixed with the president's assault on our history and our arts and our culture, even
our sports heroes. You know, you saw him sort of decreeing this weekend that he believes that Roger Clemens needs to be inducted right now into the
Baseball Hall of Fame. These are the actions of an authoritarian. And it just felt to me that waking up this week, something was different in our
country than last week.
GOLODRYGA: You also say this drift towards authoritarianism, in your view, though, many had warned about it, even going back to Trump's first term.
Now, in his second term, you say it's happened even faster than you had anticipated. Explain how.
GRAFF: Yes. I mean, here we are, you know, seven or so months into the Trump administration, we see the military, you know, seizing and holding
our nation's capital. We saw last Friday FBI raids of former national security adviser and Trump critic, John Bolton's house, you know, the
weaponization of federal law enforcement and federal criminal prosecutions to silence political opponents.
[13:05:00]
You know, this is what fascism would look like in America. And I think the sooner that we recognize what this moment now represents in our country the
better we can confront it and act on it.
GOLODRYGA: Specifically, as it relates to John Bolton. We don't know all the details yet. We do know that this was approved by, I believe, two
judges, the raid on his home and the search warrants. But I get your point, the fact that there even is a specter of doubt and concern that this is
politically motivated in retribution already speaks volumes.
Do you think that the public is seeing it the way you are at this point or perhaps is it sort of more the frog in boiling water analogy that the
country perhaps may be more numb to what you are seeing?
GRAFF: Yes. I think the country is seeing it in the tactics that ICE is deploying across the country. You know, that we are seeing masked anonymous
agents of the state with, you know, law -- no visible law enforcement credentials, you know, kidnapping and grabbing people off the streets,
sometimes to deport them overseas, to countries that they have no connection to. I mean, that is as textbook an example of how fascism
operated in the 20th century in Germany or the Soviet Union as you could possibly imagine.
And I think you see that in the way that we are watching the residents of D.C. respond to this federal takeover, which is it is clear that this is
something that is being done to the city rather than to help the city, because you're seeing residents unwilling to go out and be in public spaces
where they might interact with these agents of the state.
You know, you're seeing restaurant reservations crater. You're seeing the parks deserted, you're seeing monuments deserted. It's because people know
that they are supposed to be afraid of the government in their own city.
GOLODRYGA: So, the president did this under the pretense of combating crime, to make residents feel safer in certain communities. And listen, I
think one could say regardless of what the statistics show, and that is that there has been a drop in crime if Americans and citizens don't feel
that, then that's -- that basically it is the -- that's the language that law enforcement and even lawmakers should be listening to, similar to what
we saw with the economy in the Biden administration when he was saying that the economy's recovering and inflation is going down and Americans didn't
feel that.
That having been said, in terms of the pushback that the president's mandates are getting from Democrats in particular, I want to get your take
on how the mayor of Washington, D.C. has been handling this. Muriel Bowser, it's a fine line that she's had to walk. Obviously, the laws are a bit
different as they apply in D.C.
But she has said, on the one hand, that she's thankful and appreciative of the effort made by the Trump administration, that crime has in fact
decreased over the last few weeks. But then she also said there are certain aspects that are less effective. Here's what she said. Let's play that
sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURIEL BOWSER, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA MAYOR: We greatly appreciate the surge of officers that enhance what MPD has been able to do in this city. We know
that when car jackings go down, when use of gun goes down, when homicide or robbery go down, neighborhoods feel safer and are safer. So, this surge has
been important to us for that reason.
We believe in our environment, an urban environment, that there's no reason for any official to wear a mask.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, basically, she's saying that, yes, thank you so much for patrolling the streets. It has decreased certain crimes, specifically car
jackings. On the other hand, officers snatching people off the streets wearing masks is not something that we find useful or effective. How do you
respond to how she's handling this?
GRAFF: Yes. I think you're absolutely right. She's walking a very fine line in here. You know, I think you might think about this in the context of an
abusive spouse, you know, that you're trying to not escalate the abuse or the attack on her city in this case. And I think she's right to call out
the specific danger and the specific break with American tradition and law enforcement norms of that we are seeing ICE and federal law enforcement
across the country rapidly adopt of going about their normal enforcement duties in plainclothes, wearing masks without law enforcement insignia or
identification.
[13:10:00]
And this is an incredibly dangerous turn, and again, representative of the worst traditions of an authoritarian regime of the 20th century.
GOLODRYGA: So, obviously I mentioned D.C. being an exception with home rule law, but looking at other states that in cities that the president has set
his eyes upon and threatened to send armed guards to as well, and that is Chicago, New York perhaps, Baltimore, you've pointed out the difference in
the response from some of those Democratic governors, Gavin Newsom, Pritzker as well in Illinois having a more combative response and approach
towards President Trump. And then you compare that to what we're seeing from house leadership, Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, which one of those
two, the more combative or the House leadership approach do you think is more effective in dealing with this growing problem?
GRAFF: Yes. I think Gavin Newsom and JB Pritzker have very correctly identified the threat to America here. This is one of those cases where I
think if this was all unfolding in a foreign country, we would be able to talk about it more clearly and better understand what was happening.
And what I mean by that is what you have in President Trump's threats here is him saying that he is pulling military units loyal to red state
governors and deploying them to seize and occupy blue state cities. And that's something that we would be very clear that that was an authoritarian
move if that was happening in a foreign country, overseas, you know, where you have, you know, the military being deployed to punish political
opposition figures in separatist provinces. You know, that's language that we would be very comfortable saying if we were reporting about another
country. But it feels, I think, uncomfortable for us to talk about here at home.
GOLODRYGA: Well, Trump feels pretty comfortable addressing it. He said this week about being labeled a dictator. Let's play that sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So, the line is that I'm a dictator, but I stop crime. So, a lot of people say, you know, if that's the case, I'd rather have a dictator. Most
people say if you call him a dictator, then -- if he stops crime, he could be whatever he wants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: It reminds me perhaps of what we're seeing in El Salvador with Bukele, Nayib Bukele who has become quite popular and also quite proud of
calling himself the coolest dictator. I don't remember what that exact phrase was, but essentially, it's fine for me to have dictatorial
tendencies if there's actually results that come out, specifically lower crime and people feel safer. What do you make of that comparison and even
responding to what we heard from the president, the White House in that cabinet meeting?
GRAFF: Yes. I think that this is a case where we need to take President Trump at face value, which is what he wants is to be an authoritarian
dictator. We have seen across both his first administration and his second that the people that he most admires on the world stage are the worst
dictators in the world. I mean that he looks up to Vladimir Putin, that he aspires to the level of control that North Korean -- North Korea's dictator
has over that country. You know, that he is pals with dictators like Bukele.
And that I think that, you know, we need to start taking this more seriously here in our domestic politics before it's too late.
GOLODRYGA: You're a historian, Garrett. You talk about the global standing of the United States, how other countries view us. And through that lens,
you compare and contrast what we've seen in countries like Germany since World War II and also Hungary. And this line really stood out to me. You
said, do we end up merely like Hungary "merely," in quotes, or do we go all the way toward an American right. So, far after years of studying World War
II, I fear that America's trajectory feels more like Berlin circa 1933 than it does Budapest circa 2015.
That is very chilling, Garrett, to hear those words from you and to read them. And if this is how you're feeling now, six months, seven months into
this administration, if we continue on this trajectory, just describe what you think could happen and what we could be seeing in this country a year
from now.
[13:15:00]
GRAFF: Yes. I think, in many cases, we think that sort of all of the crazy things that Donald Trump is doing or talking about in a given day or a
given week are unconnected, but they are all clearly pointing in the same direction in terms of the threat to our democracy.
And so, one of the things, you know, I think that I'm paying a lot of attention to right now, that I'm worrying about is projecting forward what
this moment looks like in the election. You know, I have never believed, as some doomsayers have warned that, you know, Donald Trump was going to
cancel 2026 midterms or the 2028 presidential election. You know, almost every country in the world now has elections. Vladimir Putin is regularly
reelected as president of Russia. You know, Saddam Hussein was regularly reelected as the head of Iraq.
What I think you're seeing is Republican attempts, including with the Texas redistricting right now, to subtly reshape who votes and where that will
change the electorate and allow Donald Trump to lock in sort of an illegitimate authoritarian rule from 2026 going forward. And you can sort
of see this in this model that we are seeing with the military right now. You know, imagine election day 2026 where he follows through on his threats
of these recent days where all voting has to be done in person. He's ended mail-in voting, and you have ICE and military checkpoints set up throughout
majority, minority, congressional districts and urban centers around the country where, you know, you don't need to change in a closely divided
country the electorate that much. You don't have to get too many people to think that voting is too dangerous before you have completely rewritten the
electoral map of the United States.
GOLODRYGA: Well, as we close, we want to tell our viewers that you do leave some room for optimism here in terms of avoiding worst-case scenarios that
need to happen soon, but you also say that given where we are now, we won't go back to where things were the same, even if we avoid the worst. Garrett
Graff, always great to talk to you. Thank you so much.
GRAFF: Thanks for having me for this important discussion.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Well, coming up for us, a much lighter turn. The Grammy Award-winning musician, Jon Batiste, is back with his new album,
"Big Money." I sit down with him to discuss reclaiming black music and identity and the sound of new Americana. That's after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: His work defies genres. And now. he's taking on a new one with what he calls new Americana music. Grammy Award-winning artist of Jon
Batiste wrote his latest album, "Big Money," in just a few weeks while touring with his band. It's an effort to repatriate the work of black
musicians, something that's evident in the title track.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
GOLODRYGA: We sat down to talk about the new album and he delighted us right from the start.
[13:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
GOLODRYGA: I just want to listen to you sing. I don't even want to do an interview.
JON BATISTE, MUSICIAN: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Amazing that you're coming with this energy early in the morning.
BATISTE: You got to have it.
GOLODRYGA: Jon Batiste, good to see you.
BATISTE: It's great to see.
GOLODRYGA: Welcome to the program. Thanks for being here.
BATISTE: I'm glad to be here with you.
GOLODRYGA: "Big Money."
BATISTE: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Let's talk about "Big Money." You describe "Big Money" as an Americana blue statement and coined the term new Americana.
BATISTE: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: What does that mean? What is new Americana music?
BATISTE: It's the sound of the people today. Our history evolves and changes as we change and evolve, and we understand history in different
ways and the perspective of the past then changes by the way that we shape our lives today. A lot of terms in music have been there, and I think they
need redefinition or refinement.
And I think about Americana and what does that mean and what is the identity of the music of our people today, of America and also of the
world, not just America. When we think about music, it's universal. It's the universal language. So, how do you speak to people in this time? You
know, there's persecution at its highest degree, and we are in a moment where the golden rule still applies.
Persecution has no gender. It has no age. It has no race. No one is exempt. No one is exempt of it. So, it could be you next time. So, while it's not
you, it's your duty to love on those who are going through it and to be there and to kind of -- it's one of the first song on the album, it's
called "Lean On My Love." You know, and you've been taking the high road solo for way too long, Sunday to Sunday, come back to where you belong.
This is how I know it's time to let it go. You can lean on my love.
These are the kind of very authentic messages and authentic topics, and the approach to the standard way of recording. When recording first began, and
RCA Victor came up with this technological advancement that was able to record a moment and capture lightning in a bottle. We did the record in the
same way of the early American pioneers where, you know, it's me in the room with the band, singing these songs that we recorded in less -- you
know, about two weeks.
GOLODRYGA: Two weeks. That's insane. Two weeks. You can't do anything in two weeks and you recorded an album.
BATISTE: The history -- Americana as we know it, and music of America, music of the world, the cultures of the world and all the music that are
foundational were captured by farmers and sharecroppers and everyday people in the community, and they didn't know at the time that they were making
the blueprint. So, I thought about it more like that.
GOLODRYGA: Is there a lot of pressure in the industry for finding the next big thing as opposed to doing what you're doing right now and talking about
going back and really listening and really focusing on all of the different levels and elements of music and genres of music that got us to this point
today?
BATISTE: Well, there's always something about music that when you really tap into it purely. And everybody's in the same room, breathing the same
air, playing around a couple microphones and capturing the energy of collective expression, of communities being together, when you have that
opportunity to really share that it doesn't matter what's hip or what is the moment, it is deeper than that.
So, I love when I make music like this. Sometimes we'll make something that we're trying to kind of push things forward and make it, this is pushing
things forward from a different perspective, from going back to basics. We got to go back to go forward. We got to recalibrate to really know what the
next phase of things is. So, that's what I wanted to do with this project in particular.
GOLODRYGA: Well, every song on this album, I mean, you got jazz, blues, gospel, reggae, you've got it all here. And I was struck by a quote that
you gave to Rolling Stone, where you talk about how you came to this album. And while you appreciate other contributions around the world. The
contributions that Americans have made to our music is really notable. And you say, I love the Beatles, but how did this thing called rock and roll
that was invented by a bunch of black sharecroppers and farmers in the South and then spearheaded by Little Richard and Fats Domino and Chuck
Berry in depth being seen as the result of the British invasion?
BATISTE: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Talk more about that and the sort of unsung heroes and voices that brought American music where it is in this world.
[13:25:00]
BATISTE: There's a beautiful thing that happens when people don't know that they're being watched and they're not trying to be famous. We are in this
time where creatives and artists really have to be very careful not to let their light be dimmed or to be discouraged by the way that -- you know, at
one point it was primarily about greatness. And then fame replaced greatness. And now, attention has replaced fame.
So, the things that connect, the things that just grab your -- even if it's outlandish, even if it's a spectacle, even if it's something that has no
skill required, those things, whether it is in the creative arts, whether it's in many different mediums, that's the time we're in right now.
And when you go back to see what actually led to the foundations of great art and great music, it was people expressing themselves authentically and
truly from a very pure place without motive of what can sell or what can become a movement or what can catch on. So, that's what I mean. The music
is never just one band or one person or one -- this is a collective continuum of human expression.
GOLODRYGA: You've talked about this album in particular, "Big Money," as part of a repatriation process.
BATISTE: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Explain more about what that means.
BATISTE: It's been happening. It's very interesting to see the process of how it's been happening just with colleagues of mine and the idea of what
it means to make music and what we are striving for is shifting for those who -- in the music industry that still care about making music, which is a
minority, but to make music, to really be a musician.
GOLODRYGA: That's a real statement.
BATISTE: To be an artist. And to not just play with music or to even degrade music for the sake of the attention economy. You know, it can be a
real drag if you actually believing in the music, but those who are in it and love it and want to, you know, it's power and know it can connect to
folks. We're seeing this repatriation of sounds and rhythms and these things that were of the past and relics of a time that maybe was
misunderstood or we thought there was one face to it or one sound.
And actually, there's this whole lineage that people are delving into and being really musically archeological and anthropological, and that's what
I've always enjoyed, my process, what I call social music and my expression of music has always been how do we take these aspects of who we are
collectively throughout time, these older sounds and dig as deep as we can into those and recontextualize them and connect the dots between them in
the modern age, that's what I really loved about, you know, working with Beyonce on "Cowboy Carter."
And when we composed "American Requiem" and put that together as just the - - all the people who were involved in that, in the way that the album comes together, that's a form of repatriation. The way she's kind of thought
about the narrative and the tour and brought up Linda Martell and all those -- you know, in the same way on this album, I have a song about Ray Charles
and "Lonely Avenue" is something that we recorded with --
GOLODRYGA: With Randy Newman.
BATISTE: -- Randy Newman. And there's a sense of these songs and these sounds and these traditions, these rituals, and how do we bring them to
bear today, because they still have great meaning and great power.
So, you know, I've been on that train for many years and I'm glad to see it is something that exists in the work of many in this time that is very
exciting to see where it will go and how it will influence the next generation what they create and what they think is possible, what's popular
culture, what's the -- what is the aim of making an album?
GOLODRYGA: You've also said that "Big Money," in your view, contributed to Stephen Colbert and his show being taken off the air. You worked with him
for many years, up until, I believe, 2022.
BATISTE: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Why do you think that is? How has "Big Money," in your view, impacted the cancellation of your show?
[13:30:00]
BATISTE: Well, I think that there's so much that I can say about my time on the show. Seven years. I'm starting on the show in my 20s. I'm coming out
of college maybe three years before the show. It's kind of my post-grad school degree in all things television.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Typical first job out of school. Yes. Late night band leader.
BATISTE: I mean -- it was --
GOLODRYGA: Number one show, but go ahead. Yes. Continue the modesty.
BATISTE: High octane.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
BATISTE: It is very much a formative time for me. So, I just have a great deal of respect for him and what he does and who he is off camera as a
person. He's got the right values and just to see the show go off the air and to really know what it means to people who, you know, over seven years
of being on the show, going around, folk coming up to you and expressing what his voice and what your music and my voice at the time on the show.
GOLODRYGA: You've been hearing that?
BATISTE: I'd been hearing for many years while I was on the show and after I left. So, I just know how much it means to the community out there as
well. It's just tough to see that happen to your friend, you know?
GOLODRYGA: Yes. He's got a future ahead of him. I'm not too worried about what happens to him.
BATISTE: We're not worried about him. He's -- he'll do just fine.
GOLODRYGA: And what about you? You've got a lot of awards. One you have yet to get, and that is a Tony. That EGOT, you know?
BATISTE: Oh, yes.
GOLODRYGA: You got one letter short, man.
BATISTE: Yes. See, well, you know --
GOLODRYGA: Is that what you -- we were talking about what could be next for you. I mean, do you see a Broadway future?
BATISTE: Yes. You know, I -- yes. I mean, when it hits me. I -- as I said, I'm in a very creatively vibrant moment right now. I feel like the pace of
the market can't keep up with the pace of my creative output. And I can see a musical coming up with that. And you know what, I've never really fit
into the pace of anything. So, I kind of -- I don't know when things are going to come, but when it's that time, that's when they come. I don't try
to prescribe any sort of method or plan. And you know, I've always just moved the way that I feel is true and honest to my muse and my gifts. So --
GOLODRYGA: It's worked well for you. Coming to New York, as you told me, performing for the first time at the age of 14.
BATISTE: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Performed in New York once again this week.
BATISTE: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Still feel the same?
BATISTE: Yes, it does. The show last -- I'm like -- we played Central Park, 14 years old. Me and my good friend Troy, Trombone Shorty. We formed a band
in 10th grade. My first performance in New York, 14 years old in Central Park. A summer stage, a lot less people then. We performed this year,
Central Park, celebrating the album, and you look out there, you just think about the time and, you know, it's quite remarkable to have found something
so rooted in who you are early and have been able to pursue it and share it with those in the audience -- share it with audiences around the globe.
And you know, now, we're going on this tour and it's -- I can't believe that I get to do this for a living. It's just a very beautiful thing. As
hard as it is sometimes, it's such a gift to see the impact it has on people.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. A privilege for you and a gift for your fans and for the audience.
BATISTE: Oh, my goodness. It's such a gift.
GOLODRYGA: I have to ask you, and it's probably not a great question, you get this all the time with every album. Hard to choose. Do you have a
favorite song on here? Because I think I do.
BATISTE: Wow.
GOLODRYGA: I'll tell you my favorite was "Do It All Again." When I heard it I stopped me in my tracks. Feel free to sing us off air if you want to with
that song or your favorite at all. I mean, it's a beautiful record.
BATISTE: Well, what's up man? "Do It All Again." You know, I think about what would you sing to God at your hardest moment? What would you say? How
would you express that? I think you have to write songs that you feel that people need in the times. If you can give somebody a song so that they can
feel that and know that they're not alone, you can do that. And you -- if you can play what's in your heart and keep time, that's all it is. If you
can just -- that's all a song is.
[13:35:00]
That's all a melody is, is what's here and just keep time and keep the rhythm. You know, it's hard to pick a favorite. Oh, I sang one when I came
in. "Lean on My Love."
GOLODRYGA: Yes. You are going to make me cry. I wasn't expecting to end this interview that way, but that was really deep.
BATISTE: Yes, that's it. That's the whole thing. That's it. You know, you can lean on my love, the time. Lean on my love. Lean on my love. Lean on my
love.
GOLODRYGA: Thank you so much. This was a pleasure.
BATISTE: Thank you. Oh, yes. It's great to be here.
GOLODRYGA: Amazing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Stay with CNN. We'll be back after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: It's been 20 years since Hurricane Katrina struck the Southern U.S., one of the deadliest and costliest storms in the country's history.
The disaster exposed the near total lack of preparedness by local, state, and federal officials with vital aid taking days to reach people. The
lessons learned have shaped disaster planning for the past two decades, but now, they're once again under threat as the Trump administration attempts
to gut FEMA, the federal department responsible for disaster response.
The chaotic response to Katrina was the focus of the 2022 Apple TV plus series "Five Days at Memorial," which looked at the impossible choices
faced by doctors and nurses in those first days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After we survived Hurricane Katrina, we thought that we could survive anything. And we were wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Around the show's release, the man behind it, John Ridley, spoke with Christiane just as the U.S. was facing another natural disaster caused
by Hurricane Ian.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Welcome to the program.
RIDLEY: Thank you very much. It's an honor to be here. I deeply appreciated.
AMANPOUR: Well, your series is very, very powerful. And it obviously deals with the hurricane and certain aspects, we're going to get into that. But I
wondered, you know, what you thought as it's airing and yet another hurricane happens. And, you know, it's not past history.
RIDLEY: It's not past history. And it is very challenging. I never personally been in a hurricane. I've never personally been in a hurricane.
I've never personally -- I live in Los Angeles. I was there during the Northridge earthquake. It is the closest I've come to being involved in a
natural disaster. But when you're on set and you're trying to replicate a real human tragedy, and you realize everything that goes into replicating
what happens safely, and that's just an approximation of what people went through, what they dealt with, what they continue to deal with.
[13:40:00]
You know, this many years later, there are many parts of New Orleans that have never recovered. And I think that's what's humbling when you're
involved in a controlled circumstance, trying to replicate history. And it is difficult, it is challenging. But it is a fraction of a fraction of what
people had to endure and continue to endure. And we have to be realistic, it's only going to become more challenging as these extreme weather
circumstances become more and more of the norm.
AMANPOUR: So, that is a really good way to start talking about your series, "Five Days at Memorial." Because what people had to endure. And it's not
just about basic survival out of the water. It's much, much profound in the instance that you profile.
So, tell us a little bit about what made you choose the Memorial Hospital and why did you focus on this particular set of ethical issues. And tell us
a little bit about what they are.
RIDLEY: So, I was approached by the other producer on the show, a gentleman by the name of Carlton Cuse, and he had the rights to an incredibly
powerful piece of reporting by Sheri Fink that was called "Five Days at Memorial." It was a Pulitzer prize-winning article that she made into a
book which is one of the most incredible pieces of reporting that I've ever read.
But when Carlton approached me with the original article, I sent it to my father. My father is a doctor, he no longer practices, but he served in the
United States Air Force. He's honestly, probably, the most admiral person that I've ever met, other than my mother. But I asked him what he thought
of the article. What he thought of the circumstances.
And by the way, I should explain a little bit about the circumstances. So, give me just a moment for people who don't know. This is about a hospital
post-Katrina. When the levees fell, it was surrounded by water. It was cut off. They had no power. In sweltering heat. The doctors had none of the
electronics that we take for granted that become part of life-saving in caregiving. They had no communication with the outside world.
So, for five days these doctors had no idea what was going on. What was going to happen to them. When rescue would come. No food, no water, none of
the basic necessities of life, let alone the ability to care for long-term critical care patients. And there were post this event, when help finally
arrived 40 bodies that were found at the hospital with questions, as you saw on the clip, about what happened. And were these deaths part of the
natural course of events or were they hastened because doctors didn't know when help would come at all. And were -- was it better to put these
patients, so to speak, out of their suffering as opposed to let them suffer for who knows how long.
All of that information in this article I sent to my father, and I asked him what he would have done. And what I expected was a very demonstrative
answer in terms of what was right, what was wrong, what he would've done under the circumstances. And his response to me was, just thank God I
wasn't there and I didn't have to make those decisions.
AMANPOUR: Wow. That is --
RIDLEY: And based on that --
AMANPOUR: Yes, it's really powerful. So, just to lead into the scenes that you're talking about. We're just going to play a clip to start with, just
showing some of the atmosphere and the deep distress at the hospital during those five days.
RIDLEY: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's going on?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was with the patient. What's happening?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hannah (ph)?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, just watching that, you get a sense -- even though I've watched it already of -- on the edge of your seat, it's like a thriller.
It's like you constructed this as a thriller, both physical and emotional and ethical.
RIDLEY: Very much so. We really wanted to take the size and scope and scale of the story and put it in front of people. And in some ways, entice
people. I mean, look, unfortunately we took these large-scale disasters for granted, but it's way to get people to watch and understand the magnitude
of everything that happened.
[13:45:00]
But at the same time, we really wanted to make this a very human story about doctors making critical decisions. About patients who rely on a
system and what happens when that system fails.
You know, it's hard to believe that so much of this happened. This was 2005. But as we were going through production, as we were presenting this
through so many people saying oh my gosh, you know, did you do this in response to the pandemic response to many things that are happening now?
And the reality is no. We started this production well before the pandemic. The fact that people related to the pandemic, the fact that people related
to Ian, the fact that people five years from now are going to relate it to something else.
To me, I've been around a lot of stories that are both timely and timeless in the sense that it's happening now, but it's also going to happen again
in the future. For me, as a storyteller, in some ways, I feel very humbled to be able to tell stories in these spaces. But I have to be honest, there
are a lot of times where it's very tiring telling stories that it's not about looking at something in the past and saying, wow, look at the ways
we've grown. Look at the lessons that we've learned. In some ways these remain cautionary tales and that's somewhat painful.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, given that, you -- I think went into it not necessarily taking sides. Not wanting to take sides. And in terms, particularly of the
ethical conundrum of what you say was doctors who decided to give comfort in the form of injections to these patients. So, you went into this without
taking a side.
RIDLEY: Yes, it -- we were not here to exonerate. We were not here to indict. I don't want to give away certain things about the story. I want
people to watch. But there were decisions that were made in the legal case that they navigated in a very gray space.
And a lot of times in television, there are what we call procedurals where there is a crime committed, the police, the lawyers, the system, they try
to root out the evil after 42 minutes, which is your broadcasts television run time. Good prevails, evil is vanquished, a moral is presented to the
audience and things are wrapped up. And I understand that kind of storytelling. We looked for that as an audience because sometimes life,
it's so unpredictable. We like things that are predictable.
But for Carlton and myself, we went into this not wanting to take sides. We didn't want to root for a particular outcome. We wanted to embrace that
gray, because unfortunately, that's reality. And we wanted to be honorific to a very real set of circumstances.
AMANPOUR: And Dr. Anna Pou, who is the doctor in question, along with two other nurses, who actually they did get arrested because of this activity.
She also, you know, kind of summed up the whole dilemma about what to do. And obviously, kept saying that it was never her intention to do anything
other than comfort them. And the grand jury were never able to indict, correct?
RIDLEY: They chose not to. So, Dr. Pou was an amazing surgeon. By all accounts she was a dedicated, passionate physician and surgeon. But there
were questions about what happened to these individuals. And when does this care shift from being reducing pain and providing comfort to ending all
pain and ending all discomfort.
And again, as my father said to me, he was very thankful he didn't have to make those decisions. If my father, who again, to me, is one of the most
honorable people I ever met could not make judgment, it was certainly not my place when a jury, a grand jury could not pass judgment, for us to
arrive with any kind of prescribed set of visions or thoughts about what really happened in those circumstances. We weren't there. We don't know. We
wanted to stick with that element of fact.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
RIDLEY: Nobody knew what happened.
AMANPOUR: And it comes across so powerfully. And just in terms of the racial aspect of all of this, we're now hearing, CNN has been reporting
that black residents in two of the Florida neighborhoods that were hit by Ian. They say that they've been left out of hurricane relief efforts.
And we know that the governor of Florida previously voted against hurricane relief efforts for the state of New York and others during Sandy, et
cetera, when he was in Congress.
RIDLEY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And obviously, in New Orleans, it was the poorest and, you know, black residents who got the worst of the worst. How do you get your head
around that still today?
[13:50:00]
RIDLEY: You know, I don't know that you and I have the hours or the real estate in television to talk about that. Whether it's following a disaster
like Katrina, like Ian. Whether it's -- what's going on in Jackson, Mississippi right now where their water supply and the infrastructure in
the poorest of neighborhoods have been ignored for decades. Whether its Flint, Michigan.
If people don't accept that there is systemic bias. If people aren't willing to accept that the poorest of the poor, individuals with very
little recourse are being ignored. And that there is in that disregard for these individuals a real human impact, a real human toll.
What is there left to be said? The evidence is there. The reality is there. On top of it in Mississippi, you see the fraud that is going on with the
programs that were set up for the most-needy individuals. This money being squandered, wasted, embezzled. While people literally do not have drinking
water and have not had this water for weeks and months, what else is there to say?
I don't know. You know, can you plead with these politicians to be reasonable? To stop the politics? To stop using people as human theater?
Whether it's what's going on in terms of their votes, whether it's taking immigrants and moving them across the country to make a political point.
It's painful because I've looked in the eyes of individuals who shared their stories and shared their remembrances. And you are a reporter, you
have been there, time and time again, unless you've looked in their eyes, unless you've heard the quiver in people's voices years removed from the
incident. If you're not moved as a human being, they'll just say, OK. Enough with the politics. Let's just do what's right. And they get a room
and figure out the politics later, I don't know what to say to people anymore.
AMANPOUR: Yes, I --
RIDLEY: And it's painful. It's really, really painful.
AMANPOUR: I agree with you and I feel it when I report on those things as well. So, I wonder whether your other work, for instance, you were dabbling
in comic work and other such things. I mean, you're a well-known writer, obviously, "12 Years a Slave", many other things. But you're also into the
-- I believe it's the Marvel or the DC Comics, right?
RIDLEY: Both.
AMANPOUR: Both. And you've just done "Batman: One Bad Day," The Penguin." I mean --
RIDLEY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- does that help, sort of -- is it a respite from writing all of these really painful things that you do as well?
RIDLEY: In some ways, yes. I mean, look, writing in the graphic novel space, writing things that are fantastic, it allows you to reach a
different audience in different ways. For me, I don't know what it is. And, again, I don't want to necessarily bring it all back to my parents. But at
the same time, it does come back to my parents in the things that they taught me about race, about representation, about taking opportunities and
making the most of them. About never shying away from the stories that you want to tell and the urgent need to tell those stories.
So, I'm very thankful that I can take stories about human tragedy, like what happened in Katrina, and tell them on a large scale and do it with a
content provider like Apple. I'm very happy that I can take stories like "Batman", like "Black Panther" that speaks to other audiences, and speak
frankly to my kids. You know, they're more excited about those stories, as proud as they are, about things like "Five Days at Memorial." Let's be
honest, they're excited about "Black Panther", they're excited about "Batman."
But for me, for whatever reason, to have the opportunity to tell all of these stories, in all of these spaces, as long as I can, as long as I can
execute, I will. I take all of this real estate. I understand how precious it all is. Even having the opportunity to speak to you with everything
that's going on in the world. I saw what you were talking about, missiles in North Korea. It blows my mind that you find whatever I do to have enough
value to sit in some equivalent space.
So, it's incumbent upon me to take all of that space and to maximize it with the storytelling. And to do it with pride and to do it as the young
man that my parents raised me to be.
AMANPOUR: Well, John Ridley, we do it because --
RIDLEY: Well, I have to say I'm not quite a young man anymore. But in spirit.
AMANPOUR: In spirit --
RIDLEY: In spirit, I would say.
AMANPOUR: -- you're a young man.
RIDLEY: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: And you do the most authentic and important kind of writing. So, for sure. Thank you so much indeed, John Ridley. Thanks a lot. Great
series.
RIDLEY: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: 20 years later and still ambiguity if the right lessons were learned. And finally, for us, the world's biggest food fight turned 80 this
week. La Tomatina, Spain's tomato throwing festival has come back to paint at the Valencia town of Bunnell red. The decades old celebration features
more than 120 tons of overripe tomatoes and streets packed to the brim with participants ready to swim in tomato pulp. There are only two rules you
need to follow. All tomatoes must be squashed and none should be eaten.
The festival dates back to 1945 when a food fight between local children broke out, pelting each other with, you guessed it, tomatoes.
[13:55:00]
Well, now, tourists travel from all over the world. And here's what a few of them had to say about the festivities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, pretty much our holiday was based around this event.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it was so worth it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something that you do once in a lifetime. And once you get that first feeling and then afterwards it's kind of -- it's nice to
have that first feeling good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Good. It's crazy. I'm hoarse. My t-shirt used to be white. This is how it is now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: All in good fun though. All right. That is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs
on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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END
