Mailman 3 January 2004 - Pythonmac-SIG

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python for OSX programming beginner?
by Russell E Owen March 20, 2005

March 20, 2005

>Been lurking here for a while and quietly observing. > >I am looking for a programming language and preferably and IDE for a >young nephew wanting to dip his toes in the programming pool... >Is Python worth further investigating and how good are the IDEs? >Is there something along the lines of REALbasic VisualBasic >integrated interface/code style IDE available? >What are the specialities limits of the language? >Why learn Python rather than battle on and master C or more >particularly Objective C ? >Rather difficult to answer, but how different is the learning curve? > >Many thanks for any help. Hmmm...I suggest the following: Smalltalk: Squeak and VisualWorks NC are both free (the latter only for noncommercial use). Smalltalk is a lovely, simple really powerful language that includes: - powerful IDE and class browser with integrated debugger; smalltalk has the best development environment I've ever seen for a language because it includes live debugging, live changing of classes (want to fix a method? go ahead; the change propagates; fix it and continue on the fly) - really simple yet powerful language; one of the most elegant languges I've seen, though the syntax is a bit different than C and Python programmers are used to - very rich class library, including one of the nicest collection classes (lists, sets, etc.) available Between these two, squeak is smaller and more fun and includes a nifty GUI called Morphic; however it all runs in one big window (very non-Mac like). VisualWorks is more Mac-like (at least on a Mac) and more mature, but is much larger. Both are fully cross-platform (write once, run everywhere). One limitation to smalltalk is that it's not much good for simple scripting, hence simple text processing scripts and such. Python really shines there, so... Python. This is a really nice language and he'll be able to go far with it. However, based on what you said above, some of its limitations make me nervous: - there is no really well integrated GUI, unlike the suggestions above. You can do GUI programming, but you have to choose a 3rd party package and they are fully powerful, but the two main ones (Tkinter and wxPython) are somewhat clumsy and poorly documented. - hence there is no really first rate IDE (not to put down the IDEs that are there, but in comparison to smalltalk or RealBasic...) Note: python is built into MacOS X 10.2, but it's an outdated version missing some of the things that make the language sane (such as readlines support and a GUI package). Install the missing items or a better package (if you've been reading you've seen various options for that including at least one recent binary installer). I suggest learning those two (since their few weaknesses are complimentary), but you could also consider: Buy RealBasic. The knowledge is well worth the money! It's not a wonderful language, but not so bad either and if he already knows it, well...that's a huge leg up. Java. Not sure what the IDE situation is for MacOS X, but the language is reasonable (much saner than C++). The problem is that the need to declare the type of all objects makes it a clumsy and messy language compared to Python and Smalltalk. I suggest NOT using C++. The language is too arcane and messy. The object model is insanely complicated and the pitfalls fill volumes. Learn to program first, then learn C++ later if you really have to. -- Russell

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(no subject)
by Keith Nemitz Dec. 6, 2004

Dec. 6, 2004

>> >> >> huh? I mean does everyone use[-3:] instead and 0 is taboo? I'm used >> to the Icon programming language where "food"[-3:0] returns --> ood > > "food"[-3:] is equivalent to "food"[-3:None] (that is, literally, how > it works out internally) > > "food"[-3:0] is just backwards :) If anything, it should give you > "oof", but that's too confusing. > > -bob > Thank you. I knew there had to be a reason. If you think about lists as ring buffers, however, then "food"[-3:0]-->"ood" makes plenty of sense and can be very useful. My case that started this whole thread had to do with iterating from negative to positive, returning larger substrings on each iteration. It broke with the zero index. So I had to special case it. sigh, I wonder if adding this 'concept' to python (indexing lists as ring buffers) would break any existing code... Heck while I'm at it, changing the language, might as well add nested comments, and (my personal favorite) record names, implemented like this: record <tuple of enums> tuple of enums ::= (<enum> [,enum]*) enum ::= <string>[= <int>] ...such that the keyword 'record' turns the strings into module and/or class scoped indexes. Isn't it fun to dream? Keith Nemitz

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WebKit, SVG
by Dinu Gherman Oct. 4, 2004

Oct. 4, 2004

Hi, recently I played a bit with Konfabulator, some kind of a "widget framework" for OS X, which looks very nice at the beginning. But after a while it seemed to me that despite the very good idea, its implementation is kind of using the wrong technology. They try to make it very simple to define widgets by specifying them in XML and adding behaviour in Javascript code. This is done in some very strange way, though, like putting the Javascript code insinde XML comments, which is the recommended way of doing it! Well, I think SVG and Python would be the better combination, so I wonder if Apple's WebKit is any good in making use of Adobe's SVG renderer plug-in, somehow? Of course, then we'd still need some bridge to Python, but you need to start somewhere... Dinu PS: www.konfabulator.com -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "The thing that impresses me the most about America is the way parents obey their children." (King Edward VIII)

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ANN: Preview of SystemConfiguration wrapper
by Bob Ippolito April 2, 2004

April 2, 2004

http://undefined.org/python/SystemConfiguration-0.1.tar.gz This is a source distribution, it requires PyObjC and Developer Tools. The wrapper itself is (entirely) an ObjC framework, but it includes everything necessary for Python wrapping. I haven't done any documentation, real tests, especially testing of the runloop integration.. but here it is if someone wants to play with it. The ObjC is a little sloppy (three classes in one file), and the setup.py is a lot sloppy (thanks to distutils being not easily extensible), but it works.. or at least it should. I'll be adding stuff from MoreSCF, probably tomorrow, and writing more tests/examples and possibly some documentation over the next couple days. -bob

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[ann] AppScripting 0.3.0
by has Feb. 23, 2004

Feb. 23, 2004

Hi all, New version of AppScripting is available: http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/AppScripting-0.3.0.tar.gz Now handles AE and application classes and enumerated types sensibly, and implements almost complete support for by-test references (a.k.a. 'whose clauses'). Still lots to do, but seems like a good point to post and solicit some feedback [1] before Christmas. Cheers, has [1] That there's a cue, btw...;) -- http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/

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advanced newbie questions
by steve harley Feb. 8, 2004

Feb. 8, 2004

i'm learning Python, evaluating it for replacing a workflow that is now half in Visual FoxPro, half in UserLand Frontier (running in Virtual PC & Classic respectively under Mac OS X 10.3.2).. given that i find both of those environments very fluid and powerful, but dislike having to use VPC and Classic, Python looks very promising.. it has a coding feel much like Frontier, though i miss coding in an outliner; has anyone found a way to do this for Python, which is so obviously suited? since the Frontier part of this workflow heavily exercises the AE capabilities of publishing apps, i was curious to see how Python stacked up.. i read through the recent thread on abstracting the AE functionality, and a few other threads, and got the impression that there are multiple paths, and all are essentially in beta.. by the way, coming from strong familiarity with Mac scripting, that thread really helped me grasp the richness of Python, as it touched on several under-the-hood aspects that intro texts ignore anyhow, AppScript looked like the easiest transition from Frontier's object model, so i got the latest version and installed it.. i immediately found a dependency on launchservices.py, so i installed the latest SourceForge version now i'm stuck just instantiating an application object.. test.py contains: import AppScripting as AS Finder = AS.app ("Finder") and gives this error when i run it: % pythonw test.py Traceback (most recent call last): File "test.py", line 2, in ? Finder = AS.app ("Finder") File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/ python2.3/site-packages/AppScripting/Main.py", line 141, in app targetDesc, aeteList, aeTable = _prepareApp(appPathOrName) File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/ python2.3/site-packages/AppScripting/Main.py", line 122, in _prepareApp appPath = _fullPathToApp(appPathOrName) File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/ python2.3/site-packages/AppScripting/Main.py", line 18, in _fullPathToApp return LaunchServices.FindApplicationPath(name=appPathOrName) AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'FindApplicationPath' seeing a path problem, i tried "/Applications/Finder.app" and got a somewhat similar error: % pythonw test.py Traceback (most recent call last): File "test.py", line 2, in ? Finder = AS.app ("/Applications/Finder.app") File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/ python2.3/site-packages/AppScripting/Main.py", line 141, in app targetDesc, aeteList, aeTable = _prepareApp(appPathOrName) File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/ python2.3/site-packages/AppScripting/Main.py", line 123, in _prepareApp targetDesc = AEInterface.establishConnection(appPath) File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/ python2.3/site-packages/AppScripting/AEInterface.py", line 81, in establishConnection targetDesc = _makeAEAddressDesc(appPath) File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/ python2.3/site-packages/AppScripting/AEInterface.py", line 32, in _makeAEAddressDesc return _makeAddressDescByAppSig(appPath) # TO DO: other ways of creating AEAddressDescs File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/ python2.3/site-packages/AppScripting/AEInterface.py", line 37, in _makeAddressDescByAppSig sig = LS.GetInfoForPath(appPath, LS.LSRequestedInfo.kLSRequestTypeCreator)['creator'] AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'GetInfoForPath' in both cases it looks like the problem is in a LaunchServices call.. can someone tell me what's going wrong here? should i be using some kind of package management tool? assuming i can get past this i have some other questions: i see some people have trouble getting the dictionary from iTunes.. is AppScript able to do this? if not which AE package should i use? (i'm using a small iTunes-related project as an evaluation tool) i need some practical advice for persistent storage needs.. unfortunately my workflow depends heavily on both relational and object paradigms (SQL in Visual FoxPro, object databases in Frontier; both *highly* integrated) for relational purposes, easiest for me would be SQL back end; bearing in mind i'm used to completely integrated, inline SQL, with little fiddling or setup required, are there any gotchas or strong positives (from the Python on Mac OS X perspective) for MySQL or Postgres? is there some other approach which would let me do complex joins and many-to-many relations? for object storage, i get the impression there are various "object serialization" approaches.. since i'd probably eventually use PyObjC to build interfaces, i'd also consider a Cocoa-based approach.. from either the pure Python or Cocoa sides, is there one that stands out? what are the performance considerations? (most of my objects are probably smaller than 10KB) for either of these storage needs, are there good abstraction libraries so that i could switch storage types later if needed? thanks very much

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can't delete Tkinter apps built with bundlebuilder
by Russell E. Owen Feb. 2, 2004

Feb. 2, 2004

I finally go bundlebuilder working (thanks for all the help). Sigh. Quite a struggle. I plan to post some docs on what I learned when I get some time. Unfortunately, I'm still in the learning stage... The Tkinter apps I produce, once executed, cannot be deleted until the Mac is rebooted (simply logging out and logging back in again does NOT suffice). The Finder's error message is: The operation cannot be completed because the item "Python" is in use. I thought I was quitting and cleaning up properly, but perhaps not. The app does use a few threads (though I'm pretty sure I've seen the problem before any of them are launched, since all are assoc. with networking and I can see the problem even if I never connect to anything). Any hints on what to look for or useful tricks for working around this problem would be appreciated. -- Russell P.S. this is MacOS X 10.3.2. I'm not sure what other details to post now. I may try to build a smaller version of the app to try to isolate the problem.

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string index bug?
by Keith Nemitz Jan. 31, 2004

Jan. 31, 2004

This one's so unbelievable, I'd rather be ridiculed for not understanding TFM than let a potential bug slip. I'm running macPython 2.3 on Panther. Drop into python from Terminal. Type >>>print "food"[-3:-1] oo >>>print "food"[-3:0] (results in an empty line) huh? I mean does everyone use[-3:] instead and 0 is taboo? I'm used to the Icon programming language where "food"[-3:0] returns --> ood Keith Nemitz

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Installing pychecker
by Gary Robinson Jan. 28, 2004

Jan. 28, 2004

I've been doing quite a bit of python coding under OS X, but I'm still pretty unsophisticated about a lot of the "under the covers" stuff about installers, etc. So to aid in my understanding, I am asking this question here rather than just kluging up some sort of solution for myself. I ran sudo python setup.py install and the setup script did a bunch of stuff and terminated normally. now, the pychecker instructions say: > To use PyChecker, pass options and the python source files (or packages) you > want to check on the command line: > > pychecker file1.py file2.py ... > > pychecker and pychecker.bat will only exist if pychecker has been installed. > To install, do: python setup.py install Now, I have done the install. But if I type into the Terminal: pychecker somefile.py I get an error because it can't find pychecker. So, I did some searching. I found that there is a pychecker at the following location: /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/bin/pychecker and this pychecker does do what pychecker is supposed to do. But, I can't just type "pychecker" in on the command line as the instructions say I should be able to do after installing it. If I do "echo $PATH" the directory containing pychecker is not on the list. So of course, that's why pychecker isn't found. But... 1) Why do the instructions say I'll be able to run it from the command line after running setup.py, if in fact, after running an apparently successful install on OS X, you can't do so? Is it because under OS X pytchecker ends up in an obscure "frameworks" directory whereas on other OS's it ends up in a directory that's already on the PATH? 2) What is the standard thing to do? Should I add that directory to my PATH? Or should I add a hard link called "pychecker" from another directory that IS in my PATH? Or is there some other, obvious, standard way of handling it that a sophisticated user is supposed to understand? Thanks in advance for any help! --Gary -- Putting http://wecanstopspam.org in your email helps it pass through overzealous spam filters. Gary Robinson CEO Transpose, LLC grobinson(a)transpose.com 207-942-3463 Company: http://www.transpose.com Blog: http://www.garyrobinson.net

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PackageManager tarfile MacOS9
by Peter Maas Jan. 28, 2004

Jan. 28, 2004

Hi, I'm a Mac newbie but have some experience with Python (Win32, Linux). I tried to create a Tkinter app with Python 2.3-MacOS9. As Python-2.3 no longer includes Tkinter I tried to install it with the Package- Manager. But I got an import error telling that module tarfile doesn't work for MacOS9. Has anybody an advice how to proceed? Should I use Python 2.2-MacOS9? Thanks for your help. Mit freundlichen Gruessen, Peter Maas -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Maas, M+R Infosysteme, D-52070 Aachen, Hubert-Wienen-Str. 24 Tel +49-241-93878-0 Fax +49-241-93878-20 eMail peter.maas(a)mplusr.de -------------------------------------------------------------------

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