Mailman 3 July 2003 - Pythonmac-SIG

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python for OSX programming beginner?
by Russell E Owen March 20, 2005

March 20, 2005

>Been lurking here for a while and quietly observing. > >I am looking for a programming language and preferably and IDE for a >young nephew wanting to dip his toes in the programming pool... >Is Python worth further investigating and how good are the IDEs? >Is there something along the lines of REALbasic VisualBasic >integrated interface/code style IDE available? >What are the specialities limits of the language? >Why learn Python rather than battle on and master C or more >particularly Objective C ? >Rather difficult to answer, but how different is the learning curve? > >Many thanks for any help. Hmmm...I suggest the following: Smalltalk: Squeak and VisualWorks NC are both free (the latter only for noncommercial use). Smalltalk is a lovely, simple really powerful language that includes: - powerful IDE and class browser with integrated debugger; smalltalk has the best development environment I've ever seen for a language because it includes live debugging, live changing of classes (want to fix a method? go ahead; the change propagates; fix it and continue on the fly) - really simple yet powerful language; one of the most elegant languges I've seen, though the syntax is a bit different than C and Python programmers are used to - very rich class library, including one of the nicest collection classes (lists, sets, etc.) available Between these two, squeak is smaller and more fun and includes a nifty GUI called Morphic; however it all runs in one big window (very non-Mac like). VisualWorks is more Mac-like (at least on a Mac) and more mature, but is much larger. Both are fully cross-platform (write once, run everywhere). One limitation to smalltalk is that it's not much good for simple scripting, hence simple text processing scripts and such. Python really shines there, so... Python. This is a really nice language and he'll be able to go far with it. However, based on what you said above, some of its limitations make me nervous: - there is no really well integrated GUI, unlike the suggestions above. You can do GUI programming, but you have to choose a 3rd party package and they are fully powerful, but the two main ones (Tkinter and wxPython) are somewhat clumsy and poorly documented. - hence there is no really first rate IDE (not to put down the IDEs that are there, but in comparison to smalltalk or RealBasic...) Note: python is built into MacOS X 10.2, but it's an outdated version missing some of the things that make the language sane (such as readlines support and a GUI package). Install the missing items or a better package (if you've been reading you've seen various options for that including at least one recent binary installer). I suggest learning those two (since their few weaknesses are complimentary), but you could also consider: Buy RealBasic. The knowledge is well worth the money! It's not a wonderful language, but not so bad either and if he already knows it, well...that's a huge leg up. Java. Not sure what the IDE situation is for MacOS X, but the language is reasonable (much saner than C++). The problem is that the need to declare the type of all objects makes it a clumsy and messy language compared to Python and Smalltalk. I suggest NOT using C++. The language is too arcane and messy. The object model is insanely complicated and the pitfalls fill volumes. Learn to program first, then learn C++ later if you really have to. -- Russell

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Quicktime, Carbon and MacPython
by Mark Kim Dec. 3, 2003

Dec. 3, 2003

Hello all, I'm a developer with Transana (www.transana.org) working on integrating Quicktime into our new Python version of Transana. I'm currently using MacPython 2.2.2 (or 3) on a G4 1.0Ghz with 1GB of RAM running 10.2.6. I'm having a problem with the MovieController. Currently I have disabled it in the MovieTask loop because I have created a second thread to play the loop and the combination causes the interpreter to crash. A rough outline of the code looks like (this is not syntactically correct): Qt.EnterMovies() self.theWindow = Win.CreateNewWindow(6,31,bounds) Qd.SetPort(...) self.theMovie ... = Qt.NewMovieFromFile(....) ... self.MoviePlayer = MoviePlayer(self.theMovie, self.theController) self.MoviePlayer.start() #new thread Within the class MoviePlayer(threading.Thread) while not done and not stop: gotone, evt = Evt.WaitNextEvent(0xffff, 0) etc...etc... looks almost identical to example given in MacPython I'm assuming because I've spawned a second thread and there's a Carbon event, this is causing the crash. Is my assumption correct? Is there a way to spawn a thread and have the MovieController at the same time? Or maybe I'm looking at this completely wrong? Thanks in advance, sorry if this is long, Mark Kim

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Additional binary packages for Python2.3rc1 on 10.2.6
by Bob Ippolito Sept. 4, 2003

Sept. 4, 2003

I've setup a repository for several packages that I use that aren't in jack's list yet, or weren't compiled correctly for the non-fink user. The Package Manager URL is: http://undefined.org/python/pimp/darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh.plist I couldn't find what jack has been using to build binary packages, so I wrote one that makes it easy. It's at: http://undefined.org/python/makepimp.py Usage of makepimp is: makepimp.py modulename versionnumber It spits out a plist template of what you'd paste into the package manager file. If you use it, you'll want to change HTTPBASE and UPLOADCMD up at the top. modulename must already be installed in your site-packages, I have not tested userdir installation, but it works for me. The packages I have up so far are: readline 2.3c1 PIL 1.1.4 (with static libjpeg support, no tkinter support) egenix-mx-base 2.0.4 ctypes 0.6.2 I'll be adding more sometime (primarily: bsddb3, pyPgSQL, pygame, twisted), but the others I commonly use have non-python dependencies and I'm too lazy to write the detection stuff for all of them at the moment :) I may also add source installers and panther dp versions, but that's a lower priority since my primary machine is OS X 10.2.6. I don't like the current "you have to go fetch this dependency" way of doing things, so I'll probably end up writing some python-based installers for libraries like SDL, Tcl/Tk, BerkeleyDB, PostgreSQL, etc. that will download the binary from somewhere and install, or at least open up the .pkg for you. -bob

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Draft wxPackageManager Screenshot
by Kevin Ollivier Aug. 2, 2003

Aug. 2, 2003

Hi folks, I got some free time to play around with a wxPython version of Package Manager and thought it's at a point where I can take a picture and get some comments on UI issues. It's not fully functional yet, but it's getting there pretty quickly. Also, let me note a couple things of which I'm already aware: - the options box needs to be moved up a bit, I'm using sizers so I need to play with this some more ;-) - I'd like there to be some way of visually conveying the status of a package. I'm leaning towards little green/yellow/red gumdrops (installed/outdated/not installed) next to the package name but I have to figure out how to put those into a list box or something similar, maybe a wxListCtrl. Or is this overkill? I think the colors help to 'flag' immediately differences between packages. In any case, I plan to add "Status/Installed" lines either above the description textbox or next to the Options box - I'm planning on adding a "Show only: Installed/Not installed/Outdated/Not installed and outdated" combobox above the package list so that people can filter and see only what they need. - As you might have guessed, I haven't found an icon for "View Homepage" yet. <wink> Without further ado, the link: http://www.theolliviers.com/PYPM.png Please let me know what you think! Thanks, Kevin

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scrollback?
by chris＠fisher.forestry.uga.edu Aug. 2, 2003

Aug. 2, 2003

Is there any way of properly enabling the arrow keys in macpython? Either trying to scrollback with the up and down arrows, or moving through the current line with the left and right arrows instead produces nonsense characters like "^[[A". This is very frustrating; does anyone know how I can fix this? Thanks, cjf ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/

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Has anyone running vtk+python on OSX?
by Torsten Sadowski Aug. 2, 2003

Aug. 2, 2003

If someone has a working vtk with python I would appreciate some binaries. Torsten

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For your eyes only: MacPython-OS9 2.3 installer
by Jack Jansen Aug. 1, 2003

Aug. 1, 2003

Folks, the MacPython-OS9 2.3 installer is finished too. Please give it a try, at <http://www.cwi.nl/ftp/jack/python/mac/MacPython23full.bin>, or any of the other combinations of full/active/src and .bin/.hqx. Source will come later. For this one I would like positive feedback too, as so few people seem to be using MacPython-OS9 anymore. I will wait for at least one positive response for each of installation on OS9 and OSX before I announce this. -- - Jack Jansen <Jack.Jansen(a)oratrix.com> http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman -

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PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas
by Bob Ippolito Aug. 1, 2003

Aug. 1, 2003

These are some ideas for future versions of Package Manager and friends... Should remove shell executable dependencies because python does these tar unzip zip curl (not sure if it uses there or not) rm mv Should leverage metadata from PyPI in some way Should read proxy settings from OS X rather than using environment variables.. allow a user override, store this as a preference Should allow user to override 'scratch area', they might not always have space in /tmp .. store this as a preference We should write a cross-platform "preferences" module for python that: Uses the registry in win32 to determine a folders for global/user plists, and then uses that :) Uses ~/Library/Preferences/plists and /Library/Preferences/plists in OS X Uses somewhere/plists for global settings on unix and ~/.dotfolder/plists in UNIX Not have separate plist files for each distutils.util.get_platform() -- this is only semi-useful for binary OS X packages, and not useful at all for other operating systems. Have a cryptographically authenticated way of determining the authenticity of 'stuff'. My search to find a pure python way to do this failed miserably, *everyone* is using C sourcecode for this. So my proposal for this would be to have two options (1) execute the openssl utility if available (2) use pyOpenSSL to do it. With CPAN for example, if you don't have a perl module to do something, it will use whatever shell utility it can find to do the task until you actually install the module that CPAN is looking for. I'm doing some research to figure out what would be a good way to actually execute this. I'm thinking that Python becomes a central CA, and package repository maintainers get certificates from the Python CA. Perhaps it may also be possible to have a package repository maintainer authorize an individual package maintainer to manage their package (perform releases directly without bothering the package repository maintainer), perhaps these could live in an "experimental" repository, and then upon approval from a package repository maintainer goes into the "official" repository. OpenSSL also guarantees that we don't really have to worry about how secure the implementation is so long as the application is otherwise securely designed. Allow users to trust additional CAs, store those as a preference. The current infrastructure that uses PackageManager is susceptible to all kinds of attacks (any sort of 'man in the middle' attack: dns spoofing, server hacking, etc). Keep receipts for installed packages, even if we don't write an uninstaller. Keep track of dependency versions.. for example, FooBar 2.0 might require a minimum BarBaz of 1.0 and is tested compatible up to BarBaz 1.5. BarBaz might release a wonderful 1.6 version that breaks some behavior that FooBar 2.0 or whatever other packages depended on. Upgrading to BarBaz 1.6 should warn the user that "FooBar 2.0 and SuperAlice 1.5 are dependent on BarBaz 1.0-1.5, but are not tested to work with BarBaz 1.6. This upgrade may require upgrades to these dependencies". Dependency graphs are a lot of fun, but we're all good programmers here and we can't be lazy all the time. Package Manager should be able to install distutils-based setup.py source distributions that a user has on his harddrive or at any arbitrary URL (i.e. not in the plist) either by dragging the tgz/zip to PackageManager, picking a folder with a setup.py in it, or picking a setup.py. Package Manager should be organized categorically, like PyPI. (i.e. they should be heavily integrated). We should test upgrades to Package Manager :) All of Package Manager's functionality should really be in platform independent "designed" modules (meaning they don't have to support other platforms yet, just designed with that intent). Package Manager should be a responsive application, either by using nonblocking methods to speak with spawned processes. Threading sucks in python, let's not try and use it too much. Speaking more with regard to separating the model and view of Package Manager, we should think about making the Package Manager GUI speak with Package Manager over sockets.. imagine managing python installations for everyone on your LAN (that trusts you by SSH, or whatever). my train of thought was distracted by other emails.. I'm sure I'll be posting more to this thread later :) -bob

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RE: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas
by Schollnick, Benjamin Aug. 1, 2003

Aug. 1, 2003

> Package Manager should be a responsive application, either by using > nonblocking methods to speak with spawned processes. Threading sucks > in python, let's not try and use it too much. I admit, I haven't used threading too much.... But, are any steps being taken in the Python Development circles to resolve the "Threading Sucks" issues? (Honestly, I haven't had a problem, once I understood it.... I admit the threading model is a little bit of a pain.... But it works...) - Ben

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RE: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas
by Bugbee, Larry July 31, 2003

July 31, 2003

Have you considered M2Crypto on top of OpenSSL? The work I've done with it works well. Larry -----Original Message----- From: Bob Ippolito [mailto:bob@redivi.com] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 3:28 PM To: pythonmac-sig(a)python.org Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas On Wednesday, Jul 30, 2003, at 17:01 America/New_York, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Have a cryptographically authenticated way of determining the > authenticity of 'stuff'. My search to find a pure python way to do > this failed miserably, *everyone* is using C sourcecode for this. So > my proposal for this would be to have two options (1) execute the > openssl utility if available (2) use pyOpenSSL to do it. With CPAN > for example, if you don't have a perl module to do something, it will > use whatever shell utility it can find to do the task until you > actually install the module that CPAN is looking for. I'm doing some > research to figure out what would be a good way to actually execute > this. I'm thinking that Python becomes a central CA, and package > repository maintainers get certificates from the Python CA. Perhaps > it may also be possible to have a package repository maintainer > authorize an individual package maintainer to manage their package > (perform releases directly without bothering the package repository > maintainer), perhaps these could live in an "experimental" repository, > and then upon approval from a package repository maintainer goes into > the "official" repository. OpenSSL also guarantees that we don't > really have to worry about how secure the implementation is so long as > the application is otherwise securely designed. Allow users to trust > additional CAs, store those as a preference. > > The current infrastructure that uses PackageManager is susceptible to > all kinds of attacks (any sort of 'man in the middle' attack: dns > spoofing, server hacking, etc). Ok I looked really hard at this stuff and found out a couple things: 1) The openssl command line tool sucks 2) There's just no way to do it from pure python 3) GPG / OpenPGP is probably the most acceptable solution So until we get a python implementation of OpenPGP (I think we're about half way there with pyCrypto, which isn't pure python but is at least under the CNRI Python License), we'll just have to depend on GPG for authentication of stuff. I'll try and figure out how to implement it sometime soon. -bob _______________________________________________ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG(a)python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig

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