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May 1

External image
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	How to hurt an attorney's feelings

"Evolution, not revolution"

I see this phrase is in Robur the Conqueror. Did Jules Verne coin it? Card Zero (talk) 12:11, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Searching on Google Books, I did find the phrase "She believed in progress only as the result of evolution, not revolution." written in a book on George Eliot written by Mathilde Blind and apparently published in 1885, see here. Here is another example in 1879 from George Henry Lewes, apparently in respect to how astronomy contrasts with psychology. GalacticShoe (talk) 13:11, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest examples I can find of this exact phrasing in Google Books date to 1871, although it's also worth noting that Lewes expressed a similar idea in his History of Philosophy also published 1871 (see here), and also there is this periodical piece from an early 1870 edition of the Quarterly Review, citing Charles Augustin Sainte-Beuve's writings on Ernest Renan: "He had had his evolution (not his revolution)." I presume locating the original French phrasing would yield better results. GalacticShoe (talk) 13:26, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps originally conceived as a bad thing? (What did Sainte-Beuve suffer from in his last years? This has been mysterious since the information was added in 2006.) Card Zero (talk) 13:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

According to French Wikipedia (reffed) an autopsy found a "vast abscess" in his prostate. --Antiquary (talk) 18:30, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Ew, OK. I've decided that's non-notable. Card Zero (talk) 20:36, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Johann Gottfried Herder's Tithon and Aurora (1792) has "...the only answer that can be given is "Palingenesia!" – not Revolution, but a happy Evolution of the faculties which slumber in us...".^[1] The original German is "Nicht Revolution, aber eine glückliche Evolution".^[2] --Antiquary (talk) 19:01, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Impressively old! That was during the French Revolution, it's year 1 in the French Republican calendar. Card Zero (talk) 20:44, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

There are also these later uses FWIW:

"It will depend on our rulers whether we shall have an orderly evolution, which I have always preached and propagated, or a violent revolution, which we Socialists have always tried to avoid."
- Victor L Berger, In Defense of Representative Government: Speech to Congress - October 17, 1919
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
- JFK, Address on the First Anniversary of the Alliance for Progress at the White House (13 March 1962)

-IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 15:51, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Philosophy of perception

I've noticed that the problem of relativity of perception keeps coming up in just about every field and I'm curious how others can explain it. User:Mandarax has a great DYK hook from 2012 that illustrates the problem:

Did you know that Paul Kelpe was criticized for painting murals which were too abstract, but an abstract arts group asked him to resign because his work wasn't abstract enough?

What is this problem called and why do I see it just about everywhere, not just in the arts? When I study U.S. history it comes up almost all of the time, from politics to business to even sports. Any ideas? Viriditas (talk) 21:57, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

To fall between two stools? We may need another example. Kelpe's Machinery (Abstract #2) was objectionably abstract (to who?) in the context of a project that accepted only representational art, and the much more abstract works that he made two to five years later were objectionably representational to an organization of hardcore abstractionists. This isn't a problem of perception, is it? It just means he couldn't restrain himself from being somewhat abstract, and didn't want to be extremely radically abstract. So he fell between two schools, ahahaha. Card Zero (talk) 23:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, good answer. I think you are on to something here. There is an incessant tendency to push people into categories, into little boxes, and that's what you are getting at. Viriditas (talk) 23:40, 1 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

We get a lot of milage out of the lumpers and splitters article on the ref desks, it fits here too. Darwin apparently took a pluralistic attitude and valued both urges. Card Zero (talk) 00:19, 2 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Nailed it. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 00:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

There's also the old axiom, "If you try to please everyone, you will please no one." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:14, 2 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I am certainly safe on that one... --Guy Macon (talk) 06:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

May 4

Return of the Mayflower

What are the ships in the B. F. Gribble painting Return of the Mayflower, and what signal is the lead ship flying? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:04, 4 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The helpful hull numbers tell us the ships are USS Wadsworth (DD-60), USS Porter (DD-59), and USS Davis (DD-65), which according to history.navy.mil should have been at the front. If I read the flags from top to bottom using the International Code of Signals, I get ZRU KRPꞱ. It's probably not that. One of those could be a Maritime call sign, if the 60 wasn't sufficient. But navsource.net says her callsign was NKW. Card Zero (talk) 01:56, 4 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably the US Navy has or had some sort of system of short codes - like that used in England expects that every man will do his duty? DuncanHill (talk) 14:59, 4 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Remember that this is a painting and not a photograph. The artist may not have painted anything meaningful, but just picked random signal flags that “looked nice”. Blueboar (talk) 20:47, 4 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed he may, and if you have a reliable source to say he did then please share it. DuncanHill (talk) 20:48, 4 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

KRP DEFICIENT-LY-CY? I can't find anything for ZRU. I wonder what the blue quincunx flag at the top is? Maybe a Flag officer flag. Card Zero (talk) 06:38, 5 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like crossed anchors, but can't find a match. The blue pennant on the mainmast might be the squadron commander's flag. I have asked at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ships#USN signal flags in 1917 in the hope of finding an expert. Alansplodge (talk) 21:49, 5 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

According to the 1876 USN signal book that flag is the despatch flag. I've been through my Royal Navy signal books and they don't appear to be hoists made from the British code (logical if one is steaming into a British zone). The commander of the destroyers referred in his diary to having a special code for wireless signalling British ships for the voyage across the Atlantic, and it stands to reason they would have something similar for visual signalling. —Simon Harley (Talk). 07:56, 6 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks expert. Hoisted forward, this flag denoted important and urgent special service, which must not be interfered with by any officer junior to the one by whom it was despatched. Card Zero (talk) 08:28, 6 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

May 5

Weimar Republic, and the DNVP hypothetically entering government

I am in a Political RP and playing as the Justice Minister of the DNVP that just entered government, is there any source of what the DNVP had historically planned with the Justice ministry, and what laws were historically supported by the DNVP? ~2026-27296-43 (talk) 06:46, 5 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read German National People's Party? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:51, 5 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, I am looking for specific laws and actions that the DNVP has achieved (More specifically Oskar Hergt) during the Weimar republic, when in office. ~2026-27296-43 (talk) 07:14, 5 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

You might try asking this at the German reference desk, Wikipedia:Auskunft. ‑‑Lambiam 07:22, 6 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy links : Political RP -> Government simulation game ; DNVP -> German National People's Party. Alexcalamaro (talk) 12:21, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

For details of the DNVP administration, see The German Right, 1918–1930: Chapter 3, Forging a Conservative Synthesis. You may be able to access the full text through the Wikipedia Library, or there is a Google Books preview , minus a few pages, here. Alansplodge (talk) 12:26, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

May 7

Statue of Peace

At Talk:Statue of Peace#Description needed I have asked for reliable sources (much of which are most likely in Korean or perhaps Japanese) describing the monument and the significance of various details. Can someone who understands Korean please take a look and see if there are any good sources? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:48, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This Korean source in English explains the symbolism. ‑‑Lambiam 09:49, 8 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Secretariat and General Secretary of the CPSU(b)

In Soviet Russia and the early years of the USSR, the Party Secretariat managed the Party's mundane affairs under the supervision of a General Secretary, but after Stalin became General Secretary and used the role to become a dictator, his activities and those of the Secretariat became focused on politics rather than mundane matters. What body tended to handle technical issues such as coordination of the activities of regional Party organizations and handling routine administrative affairs of the Party during Stalin's years of dominance and after his death? Nyttend (talk) 06:02, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Our article, Organization of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, suggests it may have been the Orgburo, which was merged into the Secretariat shortly before Stalin's death. But not really my field, so happily open to correction. Alansplodge (talk) 12:09, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Royal Badge of Wales

Hello,

We are having a debate on the French Wikipedia about the best title to give our article about the Royal Badge of Wales. A literal translation would be "Badge royal du pays de Galles", but some people argue in favour of "Armoiries du pays de Galles", "armoiries" being the usual translation for "coat of arms".

This made me wonder: why is the Royal Badge of Wales called a royal badge and not a coat of arms? Would it be erroneous to call it a coat of arms? – Swa cwæð Ælfgar (talk) 11:07, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Heraldic badge says they're different. Card Zero (talk) 11:18, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The Heraldic badge article refers to the Wiki French page Devise (parahéraldique). The translation should be Devise du pays de Galles, but devise could be misleading, see Devise (articles homonymes) for most common meanings. - AldoSyrt (talk) 16:43, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The French article is now at Blason royal du pays de Galles. A full translation of the English name is Devise royale du pays de Galles. ‑‑Lambiam 09:44, 8 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Little Red Riding Hood an metaphor

If Little Red Riding Hood is a cautionary tale against sexual predators, How does the wolf eeating grandma fits the metaphor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ~2026-20761-49 (talk) 18:50, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

"If". Metaphors and allegories are by their nature open to interpretation (and bullshit interpretations). But if we take it on face value, having the wolf eat grandma serves to demonstrate the danger and heighten the suspense of the narrative. Remember, LRR is the protagonist and what happens to other characters only really matters in how those actions affect her (and, by extension, us). Matt Deres (talk) 19:21, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This is just a children's story; don't overinterpret it. There are many illogical points in this story. We learn that, firstly, the wolf wanted to eat the girl and the food in her basket; secondly, the wolf ate the girl's grandmother. If the wolf wanting to eat the girl is a metaphor for sexual abuse, then the wolf eating her grandmother should be a metaphor for sexual assault. But how do you explain the food in her basket? A metaphor for food sexual abuse? That simply doesn't make sense. Stanleykswong (talk) 19:41, 7 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

From the section Charles Perrault version we learn that in the first published account of this folk tale, "Little Red Riding Hood ends up being asked to climb into the bed before being eaten by the wolf, where the story ends". Perrault added an explicit (but family-friendly) explanation of the moral:

From this story one learns that children, especially young lasses, pretty, courteous and well-bred, do very wrong to listen to strangers, And it is not an unheard thing if the Wolf is thereby provided with his dinner. I say Wolf, for all wolves are not of the same sort; there is one kind with an amenable disposition – neither noisy, nor hateful, nor angry, but tame, obliging and gentle, following the young maids in the streets, even into their homes. Alas! Who does not know that these gentle wolves are of all such creatures the most dangerous!

So if this is an overinterpretation of just a children's story, Perrault is the first culprit. ‑‑Lambiam 09:04, 8 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

There is a lot of support in sources for your view, discussing the original oral sources for Perrault's fairy tale, a cleaned up version suitable for the 17th century French court. In the tale told by French peasants it was the girl (minus the red riding hood) who ate her grandmother:

After she had eaten, there was a little cat which said: Phooey!...A slut is she who eats the flesh and drinks the blood of her granny.

— The Story of Grandmother from Zipes, Jack (1993). The Trials & Tribulations of Little Red Riding Hood (2nd ed.). Routledge. pp. 21–3.

This is an English translation (full tale) of "Conte de la mére grande" recorded in Niévre, about 1885. I can't find a French version to try and determine how much 'slut' here implied promiscuity or was just meaning a dirty or slovenly female.

We could probably make something up about what grandmother represents in Perrault. What does the wolf need take from the 17th century lass before taking here body? Innocence? Piety? Propriety? Or more that she also and first betrays her family in providing diner for the wolf? Might even be able to provide sources given the volume of writing about the fairy tale.

But it seems more straightforward to say that "young lasses, pretty, courteous and well-bred" don't eat their grandmothers, and only nice girls make it into fairy tales. fiveby(zero) 13:39, 8 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I notice she was tricked (the wolf said the blood was wine), so the cat was making an unfair remark, but that doesn't seem to matter because the story has no apparent moral message anyway: it's very brisk, bizarre, and incoherent, and the whole point seems to be sensationalism, like listening to a shock jock. "Fairy tale" might be the wrong concept at this early stage, it's more like a rambling dirty joke with no punchline (though the cliffhanger ending is neat). "OMG she actually ate it!" says the peasant audience. Mon Dieu!

Found the French original. The word is salope, which clarifies nothing since it's ambiguous in French too. Dirty hoopoe? OK, I guess hoopoes are kind of overdressed, among birds, so we can extrapolate that the sexual meaning is primary and "slovenly" is an afterthought. Card Zero (talk) 05:27, 9 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hey thanks for finding that.

Maybe a trick, maybe a choice (there are apparently versions where the girl chooses not to eat and drink the blood), or maybe it's just the facts of life—a girl's first communion or womanhood passing from the old to the young.

I think there is some commentary which sees the earlier versions as just bawdy and scatological joke. But folklorists can look for motifs in the traditions of the many oral versions before they became a fairy tale. Here are a couple papers from Franciso Vaz da Silva:

Vaz da Silva, Franciso (2001). "The Girl in Red and the Wolf: A Symbolic Reading". ELO: Estudos de Literatura Oral.
Vaz da Silva, Franciso (2016). "Charles Perrault and the Evolution of 'Little Red Riding Hood.'". Marvels & Tales. Full access available to users of The Wikipedia Library.

In the first he argues that Delarue was wrong to maintain the red cap was a diffusion back from Perrault and that "Girl in Red Meets Wolf" was present in the folklore already. He identifies motifs and argues the girl was somewhat of a "she-wolf" herself. In the second he argues that Perrault was more faithful to the tradition than is commonly supposed, that the motifs are still present just cleaned up or altered for the fairy tale audience. The "hairy parts" of the wolf are really still there, as are the bloody paths of pins and needles, and the cannibalism and passing on of the blood is now the grandmothers gift: This good woman had a little red riding hood made for her. It suited the girl so extremely well that everybody called her Little Red Riding Hood.

There's so much literature it's hard to know what to reference and what's of interest here. But in the folklore tradition the girl is mostly a survivor, sometimes called heroine even, while in the fairy tales she's a victim who got et, or needs rescued. And the cannibalism is very central to the folklore.

If Perrault is true to the tradition and maintaining the motifs then grandma's death (excepting the Grimm versions the wolf usually kills her) is maybe menopause in opposition to the bloody paths (as i think the first paper above argues, i just skimmed it). She has already passed along the blood with the red riding hood so the wolf can just get rid of the body by eating it, no need to keep it around. If the motif has been totally expunged and a new metaphor from Perrault separate from the older tradition? Don't know, but think one would have to start from the explanation of the moral Lambian quoted above. fiveby(zero) 15:52, 9 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

There's a 10th century version too, De puella a lupellis servata:

Quod refero mecum pagenses dicere norunt, Et non tam mirum quam valde est credere verum: Quidam suscepit sacro de fonte puellam, Cui dedit et tunicam rubicundo vellere textam. Quinquagesima sancta fuit babtismatis hujus. Sole sub exorto quinquennis facta puella Progreditur vagabunda sui inmemor atque pericli. Quam lupus invadens silvestria lustra petivit Et catulis predam tulit atque reliquit edendam. Qui simul aggressi, cum jam lacerare nequirent, Ceperunt mulcere caput feritate remota. "Hanc tunicam, mures, nolite" infantula dixit, "Scindere, quam dedit excipiens de fonte patrinus". Mitigat inmites animos deus auctor eorum.

I'm not too sure what that says. I can see there's no grandmother (avia). Card Zero (talk) 17:33, 9 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Think that is Egbert of Liège mentioned (and translated) in Vaz da Silva's 2001 paper above. The WP article claims it is earliest known precursor with a citation to a paper specifically about that version. fiveby(zero) 17:46, 9 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

"Don't tear my cloak, you mice", she says to the wolf cubs. The cloak is red because it was given to her when she was baptised at Pentecost, and The main sign of Pentecost in the West is the colour red. It symbolizes joy and the fire of the Holy Spirit. Um, OK. Is there some pagan festival influence in the significance of red? Oh and the preamble says This is a tale the pagans tell, and it is not so strange as it is very believable. Card Zero (talk) 18:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I think Vaz da Silva covers both of your points above. It's blood the connection. Menstrual blood from the pagan stories. Christs blood, the vestments and bible covered in red for Pentecost. And this is Egbert telling the peasants what to believe. There's all these awful pagan stories about pubescent girls meeting wolves going around. This it what you good Christians should believe, a story about a younger innocent who's protected by Christs blood. But of course you need not be convinced by any of his arguments. fiveby(zero) 01:18, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the original work was not a children's story filled with terrifying details. However, according to the principle of "The Death of the Author," the author's original intention is no longer important. Undoubtedly, the most widely circulated version today is actually just a children's story. Stanleykswong (talk) 07:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the methapor is just that the wolf is trying to pass for a harmless person (a grandma) and the devouring is just the way to do that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ~2026-20761-49 (talk) 09:23, 13 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

May 8

The False Folio of Shakespeare

This has to do with the False Folio, a 1619 compilation of (some) plays by (or attributed to) William Shakespeare by publishers who did not have the rights to all the plays in the book.

The article False Folio says, "There are only two complete extant copies. One is part of the collection of the Folger Shakespeare Library in Washington, DC. The other is held in the Special Collections at Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, Texas."

However, the article Thomas Pavier (a printer involved in the publication) says, "The only complete extant copy of the False Folio resides at the Folger Shakespeare Library in Washington, D.C."

Does Texas Christian University have a complete extant copy, or not? -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:13, 8 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Did you try asking them? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:37, 8 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The TCU library's page on the False Folio is here. I don't see any indication that it is not complete. --Wrongfilter (talk) 05:00, 8 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

It is a complicated story. The Pavier–Jaggard Quartos were printed as separate booklets but later bound together in apparently different compositions, including one that also contained a play by Thomas Heywood.^[3] The Folger Shakespeare Library holds several copies of each of the quartos of Shakespeare plays included in the Pavier–Jaggard Quartos,^[4] and one copy in which these plays are still bound together in their original binding. About this complete edition they write: "For many years, it was thought that it was the only extant set that had not been rebound or disbound, but at least two others are now known."^[5] [My emphasis by underlining. --L.]
The set of works included in the copy held by TCU's Mary Couts Burnett library, as given on their webpage, is the same set as given by the Folger Shakespeare Library, but the orders in which these are bound are completely different. ‑‑Lambiam 08:32, 8 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this isn't what I expected. Thanks for your comments. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 00:41, 9 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

May 10

Does anyone here understand Korean? (Johnny Somali)

We have a question at Talk:Johnny Somali#Hard labor? where we suspect that multiple English-language sources might be getting a translation wrong. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:15, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

While you're working on the article, in the Israel section you have One of the men was seen holding an item, possibly a weapon, but no men were previously mentioned, and the article text is about April but the source refers to an incident in May, so some text must have been deleted or else somebody forgot to ever write that part.

Korea Correctional Service mentions hard labor that is mandatory for South Korean prisoners - the source has hard labor assigned to adult inmates convicted of serious offenses - which may also be a mistake. The Korea Correctional Service website talks about the kind of 8-hour-day jobs for inmates that any prison might have. However, this story is about "hard labor" in a "workhouse". Current South Korean law dictates that people who are unable to pay a fine must make up the difference with hard labor. People who are sent to the workhouse under this system do hard labor alongside regular convicts. There are over 350 workhouses at more than 50 correctional facilities around the country at which a variety of work is done, including sewing and carpentry. On the other hand, this still isn't breaking rocks. Card Zero (talk) 12:26, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Yellow legal pads

This term "yellow legal pad" comes up again and again in certain kinds of movies, tv shows and books. I understand that legal pads are distinguished from other ruled writing pads by having a margin, and possibly a red vertical line separating the margin from the writing area. I also believe that they come in various colours, but yellow is by far the preferred colour by most users, to the exclusion of all other colours. In other words, legal pads may as well be for all practical purposes yellow by definition. The choice of any other colour would be remarkable, and would only be used in a creative work for a particular reason.

Given these verities, why is it necessary to always specify that the legal pad in question is yellow? It's come up at least three times in the detective novel I'm currently reading. Maybe one mention is justified, but no more. And unless the colour of the pad is of some special relevance to the story - and I've yet to come across a case where that is so - even one mention isn't justified.

What am I missing? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 09:35, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps something along the lines of Legal doublets, "arbitrary and capricious", "cease and desist", or "fold, spindle, or mutilate". Abductive (reasoning) 10:23, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I will add to my speculation by noting that two attorneys have told me that both the size and color of legal pads remain important to working lawyers because they prevent accidentally including in filings any stuff that you don't want to opposition to see, and that they make it harder for the jail guards to "accidentally" look at material protected by attorney–client privilege. Abductive (reasoning) 10:36, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

There are definitely non-yellow (white is the only other color I've seen, tbf) legal pads. Having attorneys in the family, I've written on my share of them either at their offices or on stationery that had wandered home for one reason or another.

I always thought a legal pad -- like "legal paper" for printers and typewriters -- was distinguished by being 8.5x14" (in the US) instead of 8.5x11" like most ruled writing pads. I would not have called an 8.5x11 rule writing pad, even with a margin, and regardless of its color, a "legal pad". Perhaps my understanding is incorrect? -- Avocado (talk) 13:08, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

White legal pads are common, although not quite as common as yellow ones, so specifying the color does provide information. I’m not sure why the authors bother to provide this information, though; maybe it is just that the yellow color is more noticeable. Legal pads can be either 8.5x11 inches (standard letter size in the U.S.) or 8.5x14 inches (legal size). The former is perhaps more common, since it is easier to file. John M Baker (talk) 14:20, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

See foolscap folio. I don't know if they still use it, but the papers I received from my (UK) solicitor some 26 years ago do not sit happily in my A4-based filing cabinet, so I assume they are foolscap-based. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 21:32, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

We can't have scenery? Chandler's The Lady in the Lake mentions red brick twice, irrelevantly (the first time, the whole house is irrelevant), and it mentions that a telegram is blue and white, twice. Not all telegrams were blue and white, and not all bricks are red, but these are very usual colorways. There's also an irrelevant blue and tan bus at one point (an irrelevant old man gets out). If blue and tan buses had been mentioned twice more, I would have got sick of them, but another mention of red bricks or blue and white telegrams would have been unobtrusive, because I know there's nothing important about the colors. Card Zero (talk) 15:18, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Scenery and colour? Sure. But maybe I'm over-sensitive to unnecessary or irrelevant adjectives. I have a friend who always brings in the race and/or sexual orientation of someone she's talking about - even when these things have nothing to do with the story she's telling (and they hardly ever do) - except when they're Anglo-Celtic or straight, in which case it's never mentioned. I've challenged her about this more than once, but she vehemently denies she's racist or homophobic. She says she's just providing additional information, and says I'm splitting straws. We go round and round, but have remained friends.

When it comes to the written word, and that includes film and tv scripts that get spoken, I'm a great believer in Chekhov's gun, the adage that "If you say in the first act that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third act it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there." Apply this to yellow legal pads: if the yellowness of the pad is unimportant to the story, why mention it - at all, let alone multiple times? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:42, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Some years ago I read on the science page of my newspaper something about such unnecessary adjectives. Test subjects got a paper with a red triangle and a green circle (or some other colours; I forgot). The researcher then pointed at one of those shapes and asked the test subject which shape it was. Most native English speakers mentioned the colour of the shape, although this was redundant: "The (red) triangle," "The (green) circle." The same experiment was done in German and those native German speakers usually didn't mention the colour: "Das (rote) Dreieck," "Der (grüne) Kreis." The idea: in German, the grammatical gender of the article already provides the redundancy, so the adjective can be dropped. When using triangles and squares (which have the same gender in German), they mentioned the colour more often. Language needs redundancy.

As for Chekhov's gun: don't make your story too predictable. I prefer to put a gun, a sword and a club on the wall, only one or two of which will be used later in the story. And not always in the most obvious way. The unused things on the wall are red herrings. It also make life easier for the author, preventing plot holes. I just throw some objects into the story and decide later which of those are the red herrings and which Chekhov's guns. If I end up with too many red herrings, I can delete some. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:31, 11 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Let the deletions commence forthwith. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:23, 13 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I find that being "over-sensitive to unnecessary or irrelevant adjectives" is good way to identify AI slop. HiLo48 (talk) 02:49, 13 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe the human writer is being paid by the word. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:40, 13 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

When you want to cram a lot of information into a small space. "The legal pads were yellow, hours long, pay packet lean" (Don Walker, summing up an entire boring office job in one line). Daveosaurus (talk) 08:39, 15 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Indian Research Ship 'Investigator'

"An account of the alcyonarians collected by the Royal Indian marine survey ship Investigator in the Indian Ocean", was published 1906, but does not say when the expedition(s) took place.

Our disambiguation page HMS Investigator lists (among others):

HMS Investigator (1823) was a survey sloop purchased in 1823. Her fate is unknown.
HMS Investigator (1861) was a wooden paddle survey vessel launched in 1861 and sold in 1869.
HMS Investigator (1881) was a wooden paddle survey vessel launched in 1881 and sold in 1906.
HMS Investigator (1903) was a survey vessel purchased in 1903. She was renamed HMS Sealark in 1904 and was sold in mercantile service in 1919.
HMS Investigator (1907) was a survey vessel launched in 1907 and sold in 1934.

which of those is the ship concerned, or was it another? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:33, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

From THE HISTORY OF THE ROYAL INDIAN MARINE -- The first sea-going ship built by the Wadia family in the Indian Marine Dockyard in Bombay was launched in 1735. The last was the surveying ship Investigator, built in 1881, which was in commission for nearly thirty years. . . . Hydrographie Surveying continued to be an important branch of the service, and in 1884 a naturalist was appointed to the Investigator, and since then an enormous amount of scientific research has been carried out by a succession of naturalists. . . . This might be your vessel. Some more clues here (CTRL+F "Investigator). MediaKyle (talk) 12:45, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Thank you. [6] concurs. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:07, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved already? I had just found Naturalist in Indian Seas or Four Years With The Royal Indian Marine Survey Ship Investigator, where a chapter begins I shall never forget the day, in November 1888, when I took ship at Calcutta to join the R.I.M.S. Investigator, which was then engaged in survey work among the Andaman Islands. May be some use. Card Zero (talk) 13:22, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Various pictures of her and her officers and men here. DuncanHill (talk) 23:54, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Where in Manchester was "Guernica" exhibited?

In 1939, Picasso's painting Guernica was exhibited in Manchester. Our article notes that this was at the car showroom of HE Nunn & Co. Where was that showroom?

Grace's Guide says 282, Bury New Road, in Salford. This is now a Tim Horton's, but there's a number of car dealerships along that part of the road.
The Tate gallery claims the showroom was at the junction of Cateaton Street and Victoria Street. This is right in the city centre, next to the cathedral, which seems like a weird place to put a car dealership. Maybe things were different in 1939.

Does anyone know of any more suggestions, or explanations for the discrepancy? (I'm writing an article about Manchester Foodship for Spain.) Marnanel (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

32 Victoria Street the former/vacant Ford dealership of H. E. Nunn & Co. Your most useful source is probably:

Beechey, James; Stephens, Chris (2012). Picasso & Modern British Art. Tate Publishing. p. 218. OCLC 775030377.

from a footnote i saw which suggests that might have the most info about your student group picking the site. You might try at WP:RX. But it is certainly "32 Victoria" and not Bury New Road. fiveby(zero) 16:29, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

In 1937 i see HE Nunn advertising their main address as 282 Bury New Road with city showrooms 32/34 Victoria. In 1938 i only see them advertising the Bury New Address. fiveby(zero) 16:54, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I'd guess This photo from 1958, of a car showroom, is probably the location, and this page talks about that. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 17:04, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Car dealerships were often very prominently located in those days, and ones for luxury cars often still are - see these guys waiting to catch the wealth managers and their clients. Johnbod (talk) 23:45, 10 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

May 11

Why are there more atheists among philosophers than scientists?

according to here https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/ 41 percent of scientists don't believe in God nor a higher power. But according to here around 70 percent of philosophers are atheist:https://gizmodo.com/what-percentage-of-philosophers-believe-in-god-485784336 Why is there such a disparity? ~2026-28361-68 (talk) 09:00, 11 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Any answer to this is going to be to some degree speculation, but a few ideas come to mind:

Science removes the need for an explanation for how any given phenomenon is possible, but not for why we exist in the first place. I suspect there are many fewer young earth creationists among scientists than among the general population, and perhaps fewer than among philosophers, too. But being, for instance, a cosmologist, is not incompatible with the view that a god created the Big Bang.
Entry-level philosophy courses involve scrutinizing the arguments for why a god "must" exist or why one ought to believe in one (see also Pascal's wager), as well as courses on the basis of knowledge, belief, and reality (see metaphysics, epistemology, ontology, and such). I would guess that this causes very few immediate conversions to atheism but tends to appeal more to atheists and agnostics than to believers; and perhaps it may lead to greater questioning over time. (I note that the Gizmodo article doesn't distinguish agnosticism from atheism -- it's not clear whether the survey in question did either.)
The Pew study is limited to the U.S., which is overall a more religious country than the anglosphere as a whole. It study does unsurprisingly show 10 times as many atheists among scientists than the general public in the U.S., which does support the hypothesis that scientists are less religious than the public as a whole.

TBH, these are two very different studies with very different samples and methodologies, which undoubtedly asked different questions in different ways (the 7% of scientists refusing to answer the question, vs. 1% of the general public could be telling), so I'd hesitate to treat their results as numerically comparable. -- Avocado (talk) 10:49, 11 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

+1 Even an undergraduate study of philosophy will likely include Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. Between Nietzsche's grappling with the collapse of the Christian moral order and Kierkegaard's critique of evidentiary apologetics, a person who has studied philosophy sufficiently to call themselves a philosopher is going to have read more critique of theology than almost any scientist has. Effectively philosophers have probably spent much more time thinking about the problem of religion than scientists. Being a bit tongue-in-cheek, nobody is a better atheist than a failed priest. Simonm223 (talk) 12:56, 11 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. In A History of Western Philosophy, after finishing with the ancient world in book 1, book 2 (covering about 1300 years) is monotonously all about God, covering questions like what is God, what does God want, how many ways can we confirm that God definitely exists, and I think at one point how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or some similar conundrum. Then in book 3 the first 400 years or so are pretty similar, and even Spinoza could only get as far as suggesting that maybe the church should stay out of government, maybe scripture is written by humans, and God isn't really into miracles. Card Zero (talk) 13:27, 11 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I think it can't be under-stated how critical Spinoza was to the early development of modern Atheism. Although being honest that is one of those sentences that could be shortened to "it can't be under-stated how critical Spinoza was." Simonm223 (talk) 13:29, 11 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you meant "it can't be overstated ...", because he tends to be underappreciated? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:59, 11 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I believe in Spinoza's God, but the difference between me and atheists is about parsing words. tgeorgescu (talk) 10:10, 12 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Spinoza is actually having a bit of a moment in the academy lately. Simonm223 (talk) 10:12, 12 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, the first cosmologist to propose a Big Bang theory was a Roman Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître. ‑‑Lambiam 18:52, 11 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The Big Bang neither proves nor disproves the existence of God. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:10, 11 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

But the Big Bang theory contradicts the creation narrative of Genesis 1 & 2, so it poses a problem for Biblical literalists. The comment I reacted to mentioned the compatibility of the religious view of "a cosmologist" with the Big Bang theory, which is why I thought this snippet of info was interesting. ‑‑Lambiam 09:06, 12 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Genesis 1 contradicts Genesis 2. This did not stop Christians from being Christians, for centuries. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:13, 12 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

According to the First Cause principle, if the universe has a beginning, then "what caused this beginning" leaves logical room for the possibility of God's existence. Stanleykswong (talk) 19:21, 12 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

In order to serve as an explanation (for people who care about logical possibility), a cause has to precede its purported consequence at least partially. If time itself is a created thing, as St. Augustine taught,^[7] nothing preceded its creation. ‑‑Lambiam 16:53, 14 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Undoubtedly, introductory philosophy courses will involve examining the arguments for the existence of God, and many may ultimately conclude that these arguments are logically untenable, thus leaning towards atheism. But more importantly, it concerns the approach to problem-solving. Science emphasizes empirical evidence, and scientists typically require verifiable data. While science cannot prove whether God "exists" or "does not exist," many scientists remain neutral or set aside the issue because God is outside the scope of empirical evidence. Conversely, philosophy emphasizes logical argumentation, with philosophers relying primarily on rational deduction and conceptual analysis. When philosophers carefully analyze the arguments of theism, they often discover logical flaws, thus leaning more towards skepticism or atheism. Stanleykswong (talk) 18:19, 12 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it's also because in order to become a philosopher, you have to be open to questioning your most fundamental beliefs. Religious believers might be less willing to open that particular can of worms. So it's not that "fewer philosophers are religious" but "fewer religious believers are philosophers". Chuntuk (talk) 09:05, 12 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Also, because "scientist" is a word without much meaning anymore, there is no limit to what a scientist may entail. Our janitor is a sanitation engineer while his boss is a hygiene scientist. Does mopping floors affect a person's view of religion? I work with clinical scientists, data scientists, chemical scientists, and forensic scientists. Religious topics never seem to show up in our conversations. ~2026-16820-81 (talk) 11:34, 12 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Fun fact: during the Enlightenment, what we would now call "science" / "scientists" were then referred to as "natural philosophy" and "natural philosophers". -- Avocado (talk) 20:53, 12 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

... there could be no scruple in making free with this termination [-ist] when we have such words as sciolist, economist, and atheist—but this was not generally palatable ... Whewell was being droll, there. The gag is that sciolists, economists, and atheists are all terrible people to be associated with, so to acquire an -ist epithet would be nearly as bad as being called a nature-poker. Card Zero (talk) 06:08, 13 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

What? You don't work with creation scientists? Are you trapped in a bubble of creation deniers? ‑‑Lambiam 22:49, 12 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambian Maybe some will if these creation scientists listen to God all the time ;-)--~2026-29009-68 (talk) 09:13, 14 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

May 13

Thomas Cooke, ornithologist, fl 1823

Describing A letter to Mark Milbank, Esq. M.P. (1823), Mullens & Swann, "A Bibliography of British Ornithology", p.141, says of the author, Thomas Cooke (Q139783801):

We know nothing of the writer of the undernoted brochure, which he appears to have printed at his own expense as an open letter, except that he resided at Heron Court, Ringwood, Hants; he seems to have reported to Mr. Milbank at intervals the arrival of rare birds at Heron Court, and to have been well read in the ornithological works of his day."

Can we do better?

Heron Court may be the building also known as Hurn Court ([8]), now in Dorset. Was Cooke in the employ of James Harris, 2nd Earl of Malmesbury? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:06, 13 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, as the plate above (drawn by Cooke, from the work discussed) shows, the specimen discussed in the letter is "...a very fine specimen in the collection of the Earl of Malmesbury". Cooke writes "[The dead bird] was borne to my apartment for inspection". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:35, 13 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

It may seem odd that the address of Ringwood was given, as Heron/Hurn court is some six miles from Ringwood, and only three from both Bournemouth and Christchurch. However, Bournemouth only started to be developed in the 19th century and Christchurch, though long established, had fallen into decline because of its port being silted up, and its main 'industry' in the 18th/19th century seems to have been smuggling, so Ringwood would have been the largest thriving town. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 03:55, 14 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

What is Leadership Trait Analysis (LTA)?

I have seen this phrase in many theses, but there is no article about this on Wikipedia. Ataled (talk) 22:00, 13 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Not to be confused with trolling? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:20, 13 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

It is a collective name for techniques for assessing the leadership styles of government heads from a distance, an endeavour pioneered by Margaret Hermann. Others are aiming to extend this to other kinds of leaders, such as CEOs. As far as I could figure out, little attention is given to predictive validity, a trait shared with all kinds of systems of personality types. ‑‑Lambiam 23:22, 13 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

May 14

CNN website

I've tried to access a couple of Trump-Halligan-Comey related links (used in James Comey):

Neither seem to exist, although they redirect to a different url tree, which responds as page not found. Nor can I find them on Wayback (apart from as redirects, see below).

Other pages from the same time are present on Wayback.

I did find:

this, which is probably another version of the first story, and
this, which seems to be a version of the second.

Anyone know what's going on?

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 20:56, 14 May 2026 (UTC).[reply]

In recent months, CNN.com has been preventing reading stories until you do something. For that reason, I no longer bother with CNN.com. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:22, 15 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The two "this"es you found are archived, but they are also live as of today on CNN's website.^[9],[10] They apparently superseded earlier published but now disappeared versions. ‑‑Lambiam 10:52, 15 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

May 15