Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 December 10
Appearance
December 10
[edit]Category:Arab film directors
[edit]- Delete Category:Arab film directors
- Nominator's rationale This is mainly being used to hold various nationality categories, some of which such as Egypt, Sudan and Iraq have many inhabitants who do not identify as Arab. Film directing has been done in the modern era, so we can either have people in the specific nationality categories or have the few who were not in a general category. Arab categories only really work when we have large populations who either lived outside of formal states or lived in times where states where so unstable or so small that categorizing by it does not make sense. None of those apply to filmmakers.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:04, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete. There are many notable Egyptian filmmakers, many of which are Coptic, i.e. not Arab. It is not useful to categorize film directors by language spoken. Place Clichy (talk) 01:10, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Tecnkcally this is not by language spoken, it is by ethnicity. Which in some areas is even more open to debate. For example in Lebanon there are many people who speak Arabic all the time but do not see themselves as ethnically Arab.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:14, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- It is not by ethnicity if all national categories of all Arabic-speaking countries are automatically added to the category, although many of them are multi-ethnic. Ethnic categories should follow the guidelines at WP:EGRS, which in short means that only articles where the Arab ethnic identity is relevant to the topic and supported by reliable sources should be placed in that category, rather than being implied by last name or place of birth. Place Clichy (talk) 10:38, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Tecnkcally this is not by language spoken, it is by ethnicity. Which in some areas is even more open to debate. For example in Lebanon there are many people who speak Arabic all the time but do not see themselves as ethnically Arab.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:14, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom, but move the two articles about Bahraini film directors to Category:Asian film directors. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:31, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- I think we want to merge those directly to Category:Filmmakers. I do not think we want to use by continent occupational categories to directly hold articles. Either way I more Oppose creating a 2 article categories. I think we should not be creating a filmmaker by nationality Category unless it has at least 4 articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:54, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- No, we don't want anybody directly in Category:Filmmakers either. That's one of those categories that isn't supposed to have any individual people filed directly in it — all people under it are to be subcategorized by nationality and role, such as Category:Algerian film directors or Category:Egyptian film producers, and we want zero people to ever be left directly in the undifferentiated Category:Filmmakers at all. Bearcat (talk) 13:29, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- I think we want to merge those directly to Category:Filmmakers. I do not think we want to use by continent occupational categories to directly hold articles. Either way I more Oppose creating a 2 article categories. I think we should not be creating a filmmaker by nationality Category unless it has at least 4 articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:54, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I meant Category:Film directors. I think overall we need to stop insisting on breaking down categories fully by nationality. There are some nationalities that we have very few articles from. We can have broad categories, but I do not think we need to split out every single occupation by nationality fully.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:47, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Can we have this discussion at another time? Currently we have this Asian category and it would be very odd not to move the Bahraini articles to this Asian category while it exists. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:13, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Asian film directors has no direct articles. I still think we have never decided that directly sorting articles on the continent level is a good idea. I think it is better to either put them in the by nationality categories or the generalized one. I think in generally putting people directly in the continent categories is not a good idea.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:40, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- There were indeed landmark discussions in the past, such as this and this, where it was decided to containerize continent-level people categories (i.e. not place biography articles directly in them), mostly because they are a proxy for race, and it is wrong to categorize people by race per WP:ETHNICRACECAT. Place Clichy (talk) 18:53, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- We don't want people appearing directly in Category:Film directors either. It would be extremely large, literally to the point of total unbrowsability, if it directly contained all film directors without any kind of subcategorization — and every person who gets left in the main category, due to the lack of any viable subcategory to move them into, makes it significantly harder to clean up any misfilings of people who do belong in subcategories. For instance, if I have to leave two or three Bahraini film directors and two or three Omani film directors and two or three Sammarinese film directors in the main category just because they don't meet your personal standards for how many film directors from any given country should have articles before it's allowed to have its own "[Nationality] film directors" subcategory, then you've made it significantly harder to find and fix the American film director who gets incorrectly thrown into the parent category alongside, or instead of, the American subcategory — because instead of the misfiled article being the only thing there and thus standing out, I now have to check ten articles for their movability or non-movability status each and every time I try to check the category for any misfiled entries that need cleanup.
Sure, in the case of more specialized categories with much smaller scopes, partial or no diffusion is fine — but in the case of impossibly broad megacategories that could become populated into the tens of thousands without careful management, like Category:Film directors or Category:Writers or Category:Singers, I need any misfiled articles that show up in the parent category to be the only thing there, rather than having to sort through eleven or twelve or fifty articles that can't be moved in order to find the one that can. Bearcat (talk) 16:18, 12 December 2025 (UTC)- Honestly it does not seem that hard. Some categories should naturally not directly contain any article or biography, such as by country categories, or continent-level categories per past decisions (1, 2) if proxy for race. There is no such reason for occupational categories. If there is no suitable diffusion sub-category to place an article, of course it should be placed at the root. If there are too many of them, then it can be diffused. Loop. Place Clichy (talk) 18:53, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Except for the part about how cleaning up the category of entries that should be diffused becomes significantly harder if the category is a mixture of diffusable and undiffusable entries. It cannot be that I have to check 15 or 20 or 50 undiffusable film directors to find one diffusable film director — and it's not an issue where we can just agree to disagree about whether that's actually a genuine burden or not, either: it's an issue where the people who are actually doing the work of monitoring that category, because they're a member of the WikiProject whose ambit the category falls under, get the final say on how burdensome it is. Especially since there isn't a universal rule that "National X" categories have to have a specific minimum number of entries in the first place — size cutoffs for categories are a rule that varies according to the particular needs of any particular tree, not a one-size-fits-all rule that applies the same way to every single category across the board. Some circumstances require at least five pages, some require 60, and some allow categories to exist the moment one page can be filed in them, because it's a context-dependent issue rather than an absolute invariable cutoff. Bearcat (talk) 19:26, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- It is all very subjective. Also, there are other ways to diffuse a category such as Category:Film directors: genre, language, century, award received etc. Place Clichy (talk) 20:22, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Except for the part about how cleaning up the category of entries that should be diffused becomes significantly harder if the category is a mixture of diffusable and undiffusable entries. It cannot be that I have to check 15 or 20 or 50 undiffusable film directors to find one diffusable film director — and it's not an issue where we can just agree to disagree about whether that's actually a genuine burden or not, either: it's an issue where the people who are actually doing the work of monitoring that category, because they're a member of the WikiProject whose ambit the category falls under, get the final say on how burdensome it is. Especially since there isn't a universal rule that "National X" categories have to have a specific minimum number of entries in the first place — size cutoffs for categories are a rule that varies according to the particular needs of any particular tree, not a one-size-fits-all rule that applies the same way to every single category across the board. Some circumstances require at least five pages, some require 60, and some allow categories to exist the moment one page can be filed in them, because it's a context-dependent issue rather than an absolute invariable cutoff. Bearcat (talk) 19:26, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Honestly it does not seem that hard. Some categories should naturally not directly contain any article or biography, such as by country categories, or continent-level categories per past decisions (1, 2) if proxy for race. There is no such reason for occupational categories. If there is no suitable diffusion sub-category to place an article, of course it should be placed at the root. If there are too many of them, then it can be diffused. Loop. Place Clichy (talk) 18:53, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Asian film directors has no direct articles. I still think we have never decided that directly sorting articles on the continent level is a good idea. I think it is better to either put them in the by nationality categories or the generalized one. I think in generally putting people directly in the continent categories is not a good idea.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:40, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment Do we really want to diffuse film directors by century. Basically we would have 2 categories with a very high overlap. I really think we should only diffuse categories by century where we can have 3 reasonably size centuries. I do not think we should diffuse any category by century where there is not a reasonable change to have multiple articles from before 1890.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:14, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Correction: film directors are not actually diffused by century. I alluded to that and it was my mistake, I do not suggest that. They are also diffused by award received though. Place Clichy (talk) 01:59, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- Good to know about century diffusion. Do we actually diffuse by award received though, or is it just an added category. If we had some profession with only 37 articles so not diffused at all by nationality, but there was a major defining award 10 of those people got, would we take those 10 articles out of the main category, or would we put them in both the main category and the award category?John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:48, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose The flaw lies not in the category's existence but in its misapplication as a parent for nationality-based subcategories. The solution is reorganization, not deletion: remove all national subcategories from Category:Arab film directors and restrict its scope exclusively to individual biographies where Arab identity is supported by sources. The precedent for proper structure is already established within Category:Film directors by ethnicity: both Kurdish and Bengali categories function strictly as ethnic identifiers for individuals, and not as umbrella classifications for national cinema categories. Arab ethnicity deserves identical treatment. Al-Andalusi (talk)
Category:Curaçao people
[edit]- Propose renaming Category:Curaçao people to Category:Curaçaoan people
- Nominator's rationale: The adjectival and demonym for people from Curaçao is "Curaçaoan." It seems like this category (and all subcategories) should be renamed to use "Curaçaoan." I don't know why we're just using the name of the country here. It would be like using "Category:Canada people." Compare, for example, Category:Aruban people, Category:Irish people, Category:Jamaican people, Category:Puerto Rican people, etc. Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 21:25, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Rename to Category:People from Curaçao (currently a redirect). When we do not have a clear and universally used demonym it is better to use the People from x form.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:58, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- But we do have a universally agreed upon name. What's the alternative? Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 03:31, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- The current name is obviously incorrect. If no consensus is reached about the best alternative then it would default to Category:People from Curaçao. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:35, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Rename per nom, i.e. to Category:Curaçaoan people. When there is a clear and unambiguous demonym, we should use it, and main article Curaçao also clearly mentions it. Note that a number of children categories should probably be nominated as well. I notified relevant project pages to help bring attention of knowledgeable editors to this important discussion. Place Clichy (talk) 10:48, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:People associated with Guns N' Roses
[edit]- Nominator's rationale: Textbook WP:OCASSOC. --woodensuperman 20:26, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete We can put the actual members of the musical group in a members category or the general category, but we do not need a vague associated people category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:48, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete. This way lies madness. Mike Selinker (talk) 22:34, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- I don't understand. Those people are related to Guns N' Roses. Dave Navarro on the song "Oh My God", Eric Caudieux is listed as producer in many songs, etc. What are the criteria here? "Textbook" what is it? See Category:People associated with the arts. @Ringerfan23: pinging, who edits things related to Guns N' Roses in this Wikipedia (I'm active in Portuguese Wikipedia). heylenny (talk/edits) 02:14, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- To clarify, I don't question whether the contents are associated with GNR. The question is whether that association is WP:DEFINING and whether the connections are so varied as to be incohesive per WP:OCASSOC. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:23, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete, not a defining characteristic of the articles of this category. Most people worked with Guns N' Roses among many others. Articles about people almost exclusively working with Guns N' Roses can be moved to Category:Guns N' Roses. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:40, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete Textbook WP:OCASSOC. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:23, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per above --Lenticel (talk) 08:34, 14 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Animated characters introduced in 2022
[edit]- Nominator's rationale: Category solely consists of redirects. Not useful for navigation. (Oinkers42) (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete We do not need redirect only categories. I think we have broken up our things by year categories way too finely. I admit to some of the responsibility for this. I may try to nominate some categories for upmerge, although the fact that there are huge trees in these cases makes it hard to know where to nominate.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:00, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm not particularly wedded to the need for this, but the reason I created it is because somebody preemptively populated it with all of the current contents as a redlink — but since content cannot sit in redlinked categories, my only choices were to either create it or remove it from all of the contents it was already on. And every single other year in the entire 21st century thus far has a sibling category — in fact, you have to go all the way back to 1972 to find any year that doesn't have one of these — so this is extremely likely to get recreated over and over again by users who don't understand why 2022 is the one and only isolated exception in a 50-year stretch of these otherwise existing right across the board. So, again, I don't really have any strong opinions about whether this needs to exist or not — but if it gets deleted and then I ever see it back on Special:WantedCategories again because somebody tried to repopulate it a third time, make no mistake that I will be going on a completely justified rampage. Bearcat (talk) 19:03, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment do we need the 2 article 2020 category though? Maybe we should upmerge some of the other narrow categories, such as all with 3 or less articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:10, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that we really need any categories for animated characters by individual year of introduction at all — does having been introduced in 2022 really define an animated character differently than having been introduced in 2023? — so I'd almost prefer to smash them all down to by-decade categories instead of by-year categories, but obviously that would require consensus. Bearcat (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- I would support merging to by decade categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:06, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Support, this makes alot of sense to me WinstonDewey (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Alt merge to Category:Fictional characters introduced in 2022. As far as I can see there isn't an immediate need to remove the redirects from this tree. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle: - I think that would cause even more problems with category bloat. (Oinkers42) (talk) 22:33, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Women's handball players
[edit]- Propose merging Category:Women's handball players to Category:Female handball players
- Nominator's rationale: From my perspective this category is simply a duplicate of Category:Female handball players Robby (talk) 16:55, 24 November 2025 (UTC)
- Merge or reverse merge per nom, but the two levels of subcategories should be merged too. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:44, 24 November 2025 (UTC)
- "or reverse merge" added after JPL's comment below. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:13, 24 November 2025 (UTC)
- Reverse merge Most such categories use "women's" not "female". This is in part because these are by league played in, not actually by anything about the person per se. This category is for people who participanted in Women's handball leagues, so I think that is what the category should be named.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:36, 24 November 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Tagging more categories to this discussion
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kaffet i halsen (talk) 18:16, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- I have tagged the following 79 categories to this discussion of which three are pairs (Category:Women's handball players–Category:Female handball players, Category:Female handball players by nationality–Category:Women's handball players by nationality, and Category:Turkish female handball players–Category:Turkish women's handball players):
- Category:Algerian female handball players
- Category:American female handball players
- Category:Angolan female handball players
- Category:Argentine female handball players
- Category:Australian female handball players
- Category:Austrian female handball players
- Category:Azerbaijani female handball players
- Category:Belarusian female handball players
- Category:Bosnia and Herzegovina female handball players
- Category:Brazilian female handball players
+ 69 more categories
- Category:British female handball players
- Category:Bulgarian female handball players
- Category:Cameroonian female handball players
- Category:Canadian female handball players
- Category:Chinese female handball players
- Category:Congolese female handball players
- Category:Croatian female handball players
- Category:Cuban female handball players
- Category:Czech female handball players
- Category:Czechoslovak female handball players
- Category:Danish female handball players
- Category:Democratic Republic of the Congo female handball players
- Category:Dominican Republic female handball players
- Category:Dutch female handball players
- Category:East German female handball players
- Category:Egyptian female handball players
- Category:Faroese female handball players
- Category:Female handball players
- Category:Female handball players by club
- Category:Female handball players by nationality
- Category:Female handball players in Turkey by club
- Category:Finnish female handball players
- Category:French female handball players
- Category:German female handball players
- Category:Greek female handball players
- Category:Greenlandic female handball players
- Category:Guadeloupean female handball players
- Category:Hungarian female handball players
- Category:Icelandic female handball players
- Category:Indian female handball players
- Category:Iranian female handball players
- Category:Israeli female handball players
- Category:Italian female handball players
- Category:Ivorian female handball players
- Category:Japanese female handball players
- Category:Kazakhstani female handball players
- Category:Kosovan female handball players
- Category:Lithuanian female handball players
- Category:Macedonian female handball players
- Category:Moldovan female handball players
- Category:Montenegrin female handball players
- Category:Nigerian female handball players
- Category:Norwegian female handball players
- Category:Paraguayan female handball players
- Category:Polish female handball players
- Category:Portuguese female handball players
- Category:Puerto Rican female handball players
- Category:Qatari female handball players
- Category:Republic of the Congo female handball players
- Category:Romanian female handball players
- Category:Russian female handball players
- Category:Senegalese female handball players
- Category:Serbia and Montenegro female handball players
- Category:Serbian female handball players
- Category:Slovak female handball players
- Category:Slovenian female handball players
- Category:South Korean female handball players
- Category:Soviet female handball players
- Category:Spanish female handball players
- Category:Swedish female handball players
- Category:Swiss female handball players
- Category:Tunisian female handball players
- Category:Turkish female handball players
- Category:Turkish women's handball players
- Category:Ukrainian female handball players
- Category:Uruguayan female handball players
- Category:West German female handball players
- Category:Women's handball players by nationality
- Category:Yugoslav female handball players
- Kaffet i halsen (talk) 18:27, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge three and rename female→women's to align with Category:Women's handball and other team sports such as Category:Women's association football players and Category:Women's ice hockey players or rename female→women to follow majority of other Category:Women by occupation category. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 08:52, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I still think we should name all the categories women's handball for the reasons I gave above.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:42, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge the pairs for sure, one way or the other. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:47, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Jimmy Neutron films
[edit]- Propose merging Category:Jimmy Neutron films to Category:Jimmy Neutron (franchise)
- Nominator's rationale: Category only contains two articles. (Oinkers42) (talk) 16:58, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge this is too small of a category to be useful for navigation.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:23, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Oinkers42: shouldn't it also be merged to other parent categories? Marcocapelle (talk) 05:49, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Looks like all other parent categories are for franchises except for Category:Paramount Pictures franchises, but I think it actually should get moved to its subcategory Category:Nickelodeon_animated_films. WinstonDewey (talk) 15:36, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Jimmy Neutron characters
[edit]- Propose merging Category:Jimmy Neutron characters to Category:Jimmy Neutron (franchise)
- Nominator's rationale: After removing redirects, the category only contains two articles. Should also be merged to Category:Nicktoon characters. (Oinkers42) (talk) 16:57, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge too small of a category to be useful for navigation.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:23, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Dual merge, this is not helpful for navigation. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:51, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Team Cherry soundtracks
[edit]- Nominator's rationale: Only contains one article. The only category it can merge into is Category:Team Cherry, which the article is already present in a subcategory for. (Oinkers42) (talk) 16:25, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete, this is not helpful for navigation. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:39, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete not a useful category at this size.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:24, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete Clear WP:NARROWCAT. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:10, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per above --Lenticel (talk) 08:35, 14 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Adoption of Bitcoin
[edit]- Nominator's rationale: Nondefining and vague SMasonGarrison 00:55, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
- If not kept, shouldn't they at least be merged to Category:Bitcoin and Category:Cryptocurrencies respectively? Marcocapelle (talk) 05:39, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
- Upmerge both per Marcocapelle. Category:War on crypto seems POV, but Category:Regulation of cryptocurrency could be a potential category with the main article Regulation of cryptocurrency. Mclay1 (talk) 12:57, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
- Selective upmerge probably makes sense for anything that wasn't already in a crypto-related category SMasonGarrison 13:18, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
- Upmerge Category:War on crypto and Keep Category:Adoption of Bitcoin. I agree with the above rationale that it makes sense for it to be switched to Category:Regulation of cryptocurrency given the page of a similar title. However, Adoption of Bitcoin should be kept given that all of the examples in the category are uniquely tied together and the pages put in this category will likely continue to grow and the category is not redundant. Gjb0zWxOb (talk) 16:29, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
- But are they defining features? Like what is it about Category:Adoption of Bitcoin that's defining more so than Category:Regulation of cryptocurrency? SMasonGarrison 23:06, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
- I would Category:Adoption of Bitcoin is actually a stronger category. It includes businesses that have encouraged the adoption of Bitcoin like Square, Microstrategy, etc. but also countries and regions that have as well such Bitcoin in El Salvador and El Zonte and also countries and states that have their own Bitcoin strategic reserves. I think this is a very broad and useful category. Gjb0zWxOb (talk) Gjb0zWxOb (talk) 21:03, 4 December 2025 (UTC)
- But are they defining features? Like what is it about Category:Adoption of Bitcoin that's defining more so than Category:Regulation of cryptocurrency? SMasonGarrison 23:06, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete. If merged, Category:Regulation of cryptocurrency could be a workable title, but both categories should be severely purged. It seems to me that Category:War on crypto is full of biography articles, and if they are about people who have voiced doubts about or opposition to crypto, they shouldn't be in such a category per WP:OPINIONCAT. Category:Adoption of Bitcoin also seems to have articles about individual cryptocurrencies rather than about regulation, which shouldn't be merged. Place Clichy (talk) 18:35, 4 December 2025 (UTC)
- Ok, then it should be a selective (manual) merge. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:10, 4 December 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, GothicGolem29 (Talk) 16:09, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete both of these categories are vague.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:16, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- But parent categories Category:Bitcoin and Category:Cryptocurrencies aren't vague, so why not merge? Marcocapelle (talk) 09:17, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
UC Santa Cruz Banana Slugs athletic directors
[edit]- Merge Category:UC Santa Cruz Banana Slugs athletic directors to UC Santa Cruz Banana Slugs; Category:University of California, Santa Cruz staff and Category:College athletic directors in California
- Nominator's rationale This is a 1 article Category. These do not help navigation. I know there are a whiole slew of 1 article athletic director categories, however it is quite complicated to nominate these categories for being merged, with 3 or more parent categories to merge to. So I am trying to not do too big nominations at once. I am surprised at how many 1 article College sports related categories we have.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:21, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge per WP:NARROWCAT with no objection to future recreation should the article count grow considerably. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:49, 5 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep, turning Category:College athletic directors in California into a page with many names and only a few remaining cats is not helpful at all. Fram (talk) 09:40, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, GoldRomean (talk) 15:30, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge, makes it quicker to navigate from this article to other articles in Category:UC Santa Cruz Banana Slugs and to other articles in Category:College athletic directors in California. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:43, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- How would it be easier to find the right articles in Category:College athletic directors in California than it is now? At the moment, we have 39 subcats and no articles in it, meaning that it is very easy to navigate. If all small (3 or less articles) cats would be upmerged to it, we would have a category with 47 articles and 12 subcats. Finding what you want would be a lot harder then, and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to treat the small cats different to the large cats (if "less clicks" is the goal, then the large cats should be upmerged as well; if "easy to find the right articles" is the goal, then the current situation should stay). Fram (talk) 17:37, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- It is a dual merge. When someone is interested in the team rather than interested in athletic directors in general they can click the team category tag instead. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:55, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- The team category that will be missing from Category:College athletic directors in California? Fram (talk) 09:18, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- The team category that is in the article. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:55, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- "How would it be easier to find the right articles in Category:College athletic directors in California" was my question, so "not" seems to be the answer. Fram (talk) 14:12, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- The team category that is in the article. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:55, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- The team category that will be missing from Category:College athletic directors in California? Fram (talk) 09:18, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- It is a dual merge. When someone is interested in the team rather than interested in athletic directors in general they can click the team category tag instead. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:55, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- How would it be easier to find the right articles in Category:College athletic directors in California than it is now? At the moment, we have 39 subcats and no articles in it, meaning that it is very easy to navigate. If all small (3 or less articles) cats would be upmerged to it, we would have a category with 47 articles and 12 subcats. Finding what you want would be a lot harder then, and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to treat the small cats different to the large cats (if "less clicks" is the goal, then the large cats should be upmerged as well; if "easy to find the right articles" is the goal, then the current situation should stay). Fram (talk) 17:37, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Fram. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 17:46, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. Part of a well-established scheme to sort sports personnel by team. Mike Selinker (talk) 22:37, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
College men's soccer coaches in Illinois small categories
[edit]- Merge Category:Illinois State Redbirds men's soccer coaches to Category:Illinois State Redbirds soccer; Category:Illinois State Redbirds coaches and Category:College men's soccer coaches in Illinois
- Merge Category:Illinois Wesleyan Titans men's soccer coaches to Category:Illinois Wesleyan Titans coaches and Category:College men's soccer coaches in Illinois
- Delete Category:Illinois Wesleyan Titans men's soccer
- Delete Category:Illinois Wesleyan Titans soccer
- Nominator's rationale These are 2 categories with 1 article each. Plus the last 2 have no direct articles. This will upmerge all articles to a parent where there are either other articles there or another sub-category. This will help navigation. If we merged the Titans men's coaches up to the next parent in the Titans football tree that has another article it would be just the general category for the Titans, but since the article will be merged to the Titans coaches category, we have no reason to merge it up to the general category as well, thus we need to delete the two empty categories in that tree.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:21, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge for Now per WP:NARROWCAT with no objection to future recreation if multiple new articles are ever published. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:50, 5 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep, this would make Category:College men's soccer coaches in Illinois less useful and more unbalanced. It doesn't help anyone to find a lot of coaches there without their team, and a lot of other coaches with their team, for no good reason (no, "their cat is smaller" is not a good reason to make finding what you are looking for harder). Fram (talk) 09:41, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, GoldRomean (talk) 15:23, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge, makes it easier to navigate from these articles to other articles in Category:College men's soccer coaches in Illinois and to other articles in the team coaches categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:47, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- You win one click, but you lose the balance and completeness of the tree. If all small cats are removed from Category:College men's soccer coaches in Illinois, you end up with 6 subcats and 13 articles, making it harder to find the coaches for teams you may be interested in. Similarly, after this proposal, you would have in Category:Illinois Wesleyan Titans coaches 3 subcats per sport, and then one article directly, without the sport. It saves one click, but at the cost of an unbalanced, less informative category. Fram (talk) 17:28, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Categories are not the purpose, articles are the purpose. Categories are just a tool for easy navigation between related articles. We should not make navigation betwee articles more cumbersome than needed, that just defeats the purpose of it. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:59, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- But that is exactly what you are doing? The cumbersome aspect is not the extra click, it's the loss of the extra information. If the extra click is that much of a problem, then why restrict the upmerging to the small cats? Dump them all together, and they all get the supposed benefit of "easy navigation". Fram (talk) 09:10, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Until the point that a category becomes so big that it is not reasonable to expect that people can read all articles in the category. That is the trade-off to be made. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:10, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Why would a reader want to read the one article (David Abidor) hanging out by itself at Category:College men's soccer coaches in Illinois and then navigate to the subcats? The David Abidor article doesn't provide a generalized overview of college soccer coaches in Illinois or anything. He's just some random guy. Might as well have him sorted by team too. That would make navigation easier. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 19:28, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- That is what categories are meant for, as a navigation tool between articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:20, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Why would a reader want to read the one article (David Abidor) hanging out by itself at Category:College men's soccer coaches in Illinois and then navigate to the subcats? The David Abidor article doesn't provide a generalized overview of college soccer coaches in Illinois or anything. He's just some random guy. Might as well have him sorted by team too. That would make navigation easier. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 19:28, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Until the point that a category becomes so big that it is not reasonable to expect that people can read all articles in the category. That is the trade-off to be made. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:10, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- But that is exactly what you are doing? The cumbersome aspect is not the extra click, it's the loss of the extra information. If the extra click is that much of a problem, then why restrict the upmerging to the small cats? Dump them all together, and they all get the supposed benefit of "easy navigation". Fram (talk) 09:10, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Categories are not the purpose, articles are the purpose. Categories are just a tool for easy navigation between related articles. We should not make navigation betwee articles more cumbersome than needed, that just defeats the purpose of it. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:59, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- You win one click, but you lose the balance and completeness of the tree. If all small cats are removed from Category:College men's soccer coaches in Illinois, you end up with 6 subcats and 13 articles, making it harder to find the coaches for teams you may be interested in. Similarly, after this proposal, you would have in Category:Illinois Wesleyan Titans coaches 3 subcats per sport, and then one article directly, without the sport. It saves one click, but at the cost of an unbalanced, less informative category. Fram (talk) 17:28, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Fram. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 17:47, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. Part of a well-established scheme of sorting athletic personnel by team. Mike Selinker (talk) 22:37, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment Opposing this move on the grounds that having 1 article just in the direct parent is bad does not make sense. This move will give up 3 article in the by state coaches category. I think there is a clear consensus against creating a one article category just to put Abidor in and I think we should make a clear moritorium on creating new such categories because there is clear opposition to them.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:51, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Or we could stop nominating these for upmerging "because there is clear opposition against" these proposals. Fram (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
Swedish plasma physicists
[edit]- Nominator's rationale This category does not comply with our narrow category rules. It only has 1 article and narrowly intersects multiple subjects (plasma physicists and Swedish physicists). It is not helpful to navigation. Merging to the parent categories will help people find similar articles more reasonably.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:22, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Speedy keep. It took me literally 3 minutes to turn this into a 5-article category. Similarly to WP:BEFORE, there should be a requirement when you want to nominate a cat for being too small (no matter how dubious that concept is in the first place), that you first need to make a good faith check to see if the category can't be filled with more articles. Fram (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Withdraw since there are not enough articles. Making it harder to nominate narrow categories for upmerge is not a good plan. People who create categories should do their best to fill them out. Expecting people to go through and ensure that categories are large enough before nominating them would add a huge amount of work. We already make it trivially easy to create categories, and already have a huge process of having to post nominations in multiple places. We need to avoid policies that will make it even more likely that people create new narrow categories without trying at all to ensure they are large enough to justify.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:45, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Three of the articles didn't even exist when the category was created, meaning that a) whoever created this cat could not possibly have added them at the time, and b) deleting these categories is in many cases a bad idea because apart from the obvious benefit they bring even when small, they will often be populated by later creations as well. The remainder of your reply makes it look as if you find it more important to delete categories than to have good categories, since you don't even want to do the effort to see if a category you nominate for deletion/upmerging could better be served by adding articles, which would make both the articles and the category and its tree better, instead of worse. Fram (talk) 16:10, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- If people are creating new articles but not adding them to the category then maybe the category is not very defining. Having larger categories instead of hyper narrow categories makes things better. Navigation in Wikipedia is actively hurt by having such small categories. Trying to make is that we have categories that are large enough to actually assist in the process of navigating between articles is a reasonable goal. I have spent large amounts of time trying to find enough articles to put in a category, and in some cases have given up and stopped trying to create the category when I realized there were not enough articles to place in it. I would suggest not attacking others for the methods they choose to use in improving Wikipedia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:21, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Or people are just not very good at categorizing. And the issue is that many of the things you do (or like here refuse to do) don't improve Wikipedia. And "Navigation in Wikipedia is actively hurt by having such small categories. " doesn't become true if you repeat it often enough. Fram (talk) 16:27, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Please be civil. Your above comment is uncivil and uncalled for. Please stop personally attacking me.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:26, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Nothing I said was uncalled for. If you don't like having your edits described accurately, then change your actions. Fram (talk) 17:29, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Saying that others people do not improve Wikipedia is just plain rude. When someone asks you to be civil that means that what you are saying is rude and disrespectful. This response was also uncivil and uncalled for. Please stop attacking the ways in which I edit Wikipedia. It is very rude. I am asking you to stop engaging in personal attacks. Please stop it. It is a reasonble request to ask that people do not go around saying that others actions "do not improve the encyclopedia". That is rude. I am asking you to stop posting such rude messages. Being civil is one of the guidelines of editing on Wikipedia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:35, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Refusing to do an easy check if a category can be populated and instead nominating it for deletion or upmerging doesn't improve Wikipedia, just like people nominating articles for AfD where an easy WP:BEFORE check would show numerous good sources doesn'y t improve Wikipedia. Saying this is perfectly acceptable. Like I said in another discussion, feel free to open an ANI discussion, where the edits around this by both of us will be scrutinized. For example, describing someone's edits and the result they have is not a "personal attack", and misusing "personal attacks" to silence someone is frowned upon. Fram (talk) 17:42, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for populating the category. WP:BEFORE is describing AFD and, while I think it's fine to try to save categories, there is some onus on category creators to ensure their creations are useful. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:29, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- There is also onus on article creators to have fully sourced, fleshed out articles. Still, when a one-source stub comes to AfD, we expect the nominator to have checked whether the subject is notable, based on e.g. Google searches, not just based on the state of the article. Poor article creation / category population should not be an excuse for deletion when there is an alternative. Fram (talk) 09:20, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for populating the category. WP:BEFORE is describing AFD and, while I think it's fine to try to save categories, there is some onus on category creators to ensure their creations are useful. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:29, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Refusing to do an easy check if a category can be populated and instead nominating it for deletion or upmerging doesn't improve Wikipedia, just like people nominating articles for AfD where an easy WP:BEFORE check would show numerous good sources doesn'y t improve Wikipedia. Saying this is perfectly acceptable. Like I said in another discussion, feel free to open an ANI discussion, where the edits around this by both of us will be scrutinized. For example, describing someone's edits and the result they have is not a "personal attack", and misusing "personal attacks" to silence someone is frowned upon. Fram (talk) 17:42, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Saying that others people do not improve Wikipedia is just plain rude. When someone asks you to be civil that means that what you are saying is rude and disrespectful. This response was also uncivil and uncalled for. Please stop attacking the ways in which I edit Wikipedia. It is very rude. I am asking you to stop engaging in personal attacks. Please stop it. It is a reasonble request to ask that people do not go around saying that others actions "do not improve the encyclopedia". That is rude. I am asking you to stop posting such rude messages. Being civil is one of the guidelines of editing on Wikipedia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:35, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Please be civil. Your above comment is uncivil and uncalled for. Please stop personally attacking me.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:26, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- If people are creating new articles but not adding them to the category then maybe the category is not very defining. Having larger categories instead of hyper narrow categories makes things better. Navigation in Wikipedia is actively hurt by having such small categories. Trying to make is that we have categories that are large enough to actually assist in the process of navigating between articles is a reasonable goal. I have spent large amounts of time trying to find enough articles to put in a category, and in some cases have given up and stopped trying to create the category when I realized there were not enough articles to place in it. I would suggest not attacking others for the methods they choose to use in improving Wikipedia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:21, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
Small journalists categories by nationality beginning with the letter A
[edit]- Merge Category:Andorran women journalists (1) to Category:Women journalists. (we do not need to merge to the 2 article Category:Andorran journalists category since the 1 article here is already one of two articles directly there. We do not need to merge to Andorran women writers because the 1 article here is also already directly there)
- Merge Category:Angolan radio journalists to Category:Radio journalists and Category:Angolan journalists (the article is already in Category:Angolan radio presenters
- Merge Category:Armenian women columnists (1) to Category:Armenian women journalists; Category:Women columnists
- Merge Category:Armenian columnists (1) [which is the same 1 article as above] to Category:Armenian journalists and Category:Columnists
- Delete Category:Armenian journalists by type since with the upmerging of the 1 article on a columnists there will be nothing in this category at all.
- Merge Category:Azerbaijani television news anchors (1) to Category:Azerbaijani television presenters; Category:Television news anchors and Category:Azerbaijani journalists
- Delete Category:Azerbaijani television journalists since the above merger will leave this category empty.
- Nominator's rationale All these categories violate the narrow category guidelines. In all these cases there is only 1 article in the category. The extreme category is the set of Armenian categories where a tree of 3 categories has only 1 article in total. This excessive splitting makes navigation harder, and in the two women categories is not really in line with the last rung policy which is that for ERGS categories we should not split them if there is not a reasonable way to split the category by another way. There might be a size exemption to the last rung rule, so that a category like Category:Armenian women journalists we maybe would split up by columnists, correspondents, radio, TV etc. even if that was the only way we could split Category:Armenian journalists if the women journalists category was exceedingly larger and made navigation very hard by its huge size. However that is not the case. The merger will give us Category:Armenian women journalists with only 9 articles in total. I believe these upmergers will assist in navigation. I am also trying to strike a reasonable balance between too large and too narrow nominations. Although each one of these is a different sub-cat of the specific type of journalists from that country, I think that overall all the categories being journalists categories makes them related enough to put together.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:54, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep, I see no benefit to readers from removing some of the countries from e.g. Category:Women journalists by nationality, which now has subcats for some 150 countries. No problem seems to be solved by moving some of these out of this tree only because their country has less entries. Navigation is just as hard or just as easy for a journalist from a large country as for a journalist from a small country. Removing some countries is making the structure less logical and may well give readers the impression that we have no articles for e.g. women columnists from those countries (because, from the point of view of a reader, why else would we have a category for Argentine or Belgian women columnists, but not for Armenian?). Fram (talk) 14:04, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge, makes it easier to navigate from e.g. Marta Repullo i Grau to other articles about women journalists. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- But makes the reverse harder if you come from a by country category, e.g. French or Spanish. The logical place to look for them, if you are interested in these from that perspective, would no longer list them. Making it "easier" by removing the need for one or two clicks, while at the same time making it harder by completely removing it from a logical category, is not a zero-sum game. Fram (talk) 17:22, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- It also makes life easier when you start at French. When someone has read all articles about French television journalists and they are so much in the topic that they also want to read about television journalists of other nationalities then they will find Marta Repullo i Grau quicker in the root category than in a subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:06, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Not when they want to read from specific countries only (Andorra being a neighbour of Spain and France), but the root category is also filled with Adele Ramos and Maria Ângela Carrascalão and Rosa Malango and Marthe Fare and Marie-Antoinette Rose and so on and so on. Apparently we have decided that it is normal for people to want to find women journalists of certain countries (hence this tree) but not if you are from a small country? Fram (talk) 09:16, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- When people are specifically interested in women in journalists from small countries, they will find them in the root category. That is how all root categories work in relationship to subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:13, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Which is completely obscure and illogical for readers. Please, please, don't just give me "but that's how we do this" answers, I really am not interested in or convinced by such. And people are normally not "specifically interested in women in journalists from small countries", they may e.g. be interested in woman journalists writing in Catalan (so looking for journalists from Spain and Andorra), or from the Iberian peninsula, or... (to stick to the Andorra example), or they may be interested in women journalists from countries from Oceania, or ... Fram (talk) 20:46, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- If readers are specifically interested in Andorran people they will find them in the Andorran tree. For clarification, "that's how we do this", what I mean is that throughout the categories there are categories consisting of subcategories plus single articles that do not fit anywhere in the subcategories. For example Category:Journalism has 29 subcategories and 91 articles. Readers who use categories to navigate between articles will be aware of that, or will become aware of that. They will scroll or read the 91 articles if none of the 29 subcategories is particularly interesting to them. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:28, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Which is completely obscure and illogical for readers. Please, please, don't just give me "but that's how we do this" answers, I really am not interested in or convinced by such. And people are normally not "specifically interested in women in journalists from small countries", they may e.g. be interested in woman journalists writing in Catalan (so looking for journalists from Spain and Andorra), or from the Iberian peninsula, or... (to stick to the Andorra example), or they may be interested in women journalists from countries from Oceania, or ... Fram (talk) 20:46, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- When people are specifically interested in women in journalists from small countries, they will find them in the root category. That is how all root categories work in relationship to subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:13, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Not when they want to read from specific countries only (Andorra being a neighbour of Spain and France), but the root category is also filled with Adele Ramos and Maria Ângela Carrascalão and Rosa Malango and Marthe Fare and Marie-Antoinette Rose and so on and so on. Apparently we have decided that it is normal for people to want to find women journalists of certain countries (hence this tree) but not if you are from a small country? Fram (talk) 09:16, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- "If readers are specifically interested in Andorran people they will find them in the Andorran tree. " applies to every single subcat of course. "what I mean is that throughout the categories there are categories consisting of subcategories plus single articles that do not fit anywhere in the subcategories." (emphasis mine). Facepalm. Here the articles fit perfectly into the subcategories, but you want to remove them. You give the example of the loose articles at Category:Journalism, but these are articles which don't fit in the subcat system as it stands there now. This doesn't apply to subcat systems by period or location, where the loose articles would fit perfectly in the subcat system (or as usually at CfD are already in the subcat system) but get removed from it, not because "they don't fit in the subcategories" but because they don't fit in some "ooh, too many clicks" fallacy (it's just as many clicks as for all these slightly larger categories). Fram (talk) 10:41, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- I still don't understand what advantage there is in "would fit perfectly in the subcat system". Wikipedia does not exist for the sake of building a system, it exists so that people can easily read articles. Too many clicks is not a fallacy, it is reality. Reading as little as 4 articles in one-article categories requires 8 clicks going back and forth which is completely unnecessary. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:03, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- The category system is so people can easily "find" systems. Making it harder to find the article(s) you want, or forcing people to open articles they don´t need because of insufficient categorisation, is worse than a few extra clucks to get exactly what you want. Fram (talk) 14:20, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- I still don't understand what advantage there is in "would fit perfectly in the subcat system". Wikipedia does not exist for the sake of building a system, it exists so that people can easily read articles. Too many clicks is not a fallacy, it is reality. Reading as little as 4 articles in one-article categories requires 8 clicks going back and forth which is completely unnecessary. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:03, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- "If readers are specifically interested in Andorran people they will find them in the Andorran tree. " applies to every single subcat of course. "what I mean is that throughout the categories there are categories consisting of subcategories plus single articles that do not fit anywhere in the subcategories." (emphasis mine). Facepalm. Here the articles fit perfectly into the subcategories, but you want to remove them. You give the example of the loose articles at Category:Journalism, but these are articles which don't fit in the subcat system as it stands there now. This doesn't apply to subcat systems by period or location, where the loose articles would fit perfectly in the subcat system (or as usually at CfD are already in the subcat system) but get removed from it, not because "they don't fit in the subcategories" but because they don't fit in some "ooh, too many clicks" fallacy (it's just as many clicks as for all these slightly larger categories). Fram (talk) 10:41, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- It also makes life easier when you start at French. When someone has read all articles about French television journalists and they are so much in the topic that they also want to read about television journalists of other nationalities then they will find Marta Repullo i Grau quicker in the root category than in a subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:06, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- But makes the reverse harder if you come from a by country category, e.g. French or Spanish. The logical place to look for them, if you are interested in these from that perspective, would no longer list them. Making it "easier" by removing the need for one or two clicks, while at the same time making it harder by completely removing it from a logical category, is not a zero-sum game. Fram (talk) 17:22, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep I don't think merging only the people from small countries into a general cat like Women journalists is helpful for navigation. There's no reason Category:Women journalists by nationality should not be complete. Readers don't know the intricacies of Wikipedia politics. If they don't see Category:Andorran women journalists, they'll just give up and assume we don't have any articles on Andorran journalists. They're not going to do a deep dive into every possible category route. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 19:41, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment Category:Women journalists already has 4 direct biographical articles. There are multiple sub-cats that are things like Category:Women columnists that also have direct articles. I did not go and see how many direct articles we have there and how many of the direct articles there are also in by nationality sub-cats. We have upmerged over the last few months at least dozens if not more 1 article categories by nationality to more general categories not by nationality. In general doing so allows for better navigation. The idea that we have to split up every possible category into every possible by nationality sub-cat is just unreasonable. Categories are meant to aid navigation, and 1 article categories almost never do that.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:52, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- I see the advantage of this approach. However I am hesitant about it. In most cases we have sources calling these people writers, journalists, scientists, chemist etc., and most often sources will describe them as from a place, of a certain nationality, etc. I guess we can just say we know x places are part of y continent. However one of these we have in some cases is various "Caribbean" categories, I am not sure we know 100% what is and what is not Caribbean. With actual countries there are actual borders. So I am hesitant, but if people think this would be better than a grand Writers cat, Jorurnalists cat, etc. to hold everyone where we cannot create reasonable by country sub-cats I will go for it. I will note we do have some histircal categories like various People from Al-Andalus categories, that refer to a recognized region that was not actually a country so there is present for that. We also in some cases do not have European categories when we have other sub-categories by continent, even though Europe has multiple micro states and other very small places even in the present that are too small in a lot of cases to justify diffusing by as many categories as we diffuse larger states by. What is clear to me is that any tree that has more categories than it has more articles makes it far too hard to find the actual category. I would support multi-national regional categories over these 1 and 2 article sub-cats that often require people to search through several categories to even find another article. What we have now is too many narrow categories. If we will allow every 1 article category that someone bothers to create why have the narrow category guidelines at all?John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:23, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment Category:Women journalists already has 4 direct biographical articles. There are multiple sub-cats that are things like Category:Women columnists that also have direct articles. I did not go and see how many direct articles we have there and how many of the direct articles there are also in by nationality sub-cats. We have upmerged over the last few months at least dozens if not more 1 article categories by nationality to more general categories not by nationality. In general doing so allows for better navigation. The idea that we have to split up every possible category into every possible by nationality sub-cat is just unreasonable. Categories are meant to aid navigation, and 1 article categories almost never do that.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:52, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge for Now Having narrow categories hinders navigation but no objection to future recreation if/when the article count grows signficantly for any given country. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:41, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
Vanuatuan writers
[edit]- Nominator's rationale Each of these 3 categories has only 1 article. One article categories hinder the main purpose of Wikipedia which is to assist in navigating between articles. The entire Vanuatuan writers category tree has 4 categories to contain 3 articles. In very few cases should we have a tree with more categories than articles, I see no reason to do so at this point here. Merging to the parent categories will assist in navigation.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- "the main purpose of Wikipedia which is to assist in navigating between articles."??? Fram (talk) 13:41, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- I meant that the main purpose of categories is to assist in navigation between categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:00, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- That's rather circular. You meant "articles" instead of "categories"? Fram (talk) 14:08, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Yes I meant the main purpose of categories is to facilitate in navigating between articles. Categories do not exist for any other purpose than to group together articles and help moving between them. They are not meant to be a way to give information on a topic. If you want to give information on a topic you create an article, so for example Writing in Tuvalu or Tuvuluan writers or some similar named article and then write an article on that topic. That is what articles do, give us information on a topic. Categories are to assist in navigating between articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:05, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- I meant that the main purpose of categories is to assist in navigation between categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:00, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. e.g. Category:Women writers is a container category, not intended for articles. We have now some 200 nationalities in Category:Women writers by nationality, some small, some large (reflecting things like the size of the country, the bias against women writing, and the Anglocentric bias of enwiki). How navigation will be assisted by removing only this category from this whole tree is completely unclear. "Hey reader, we have categorized all women writers by nationality, except for Vanuatu. We excluded that last one to help you!". Same applies to the other groups. Fram (talk) 13:46, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Women writers should not be a container category, I removed that notice. That is a clear set up of a mess with ERGS rules. ERGS rules say that we should not have women categories as last rung categories. In some cases by nationality writers categories are too small to reasonably exppect multiple rungs, so splitting all women writers out by nationality is not reasonable. We have recently upmerged a whole slew of there very narrow by nationality categories because they are clearly in violation of the last rung rule. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to right great wrongs. The purpose of categories is to navigate between articles, not to reflect on biases of any kind. If we have enough articles to justify a category we create a category, if we only have a very small number of articles we put them in a larger category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:00, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- ERGS rules? Fram (talk) 14:06, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- These are the rules that govern how we create categories for women and several other related categories, e standard for ethnicity for example. One of the things they say is in general we should not create "last rung categories". These are categories where we seperate out women, or an ethnic group, as the only sub-cat of a more general category. So we should have no x women category that is the only category of of an x category, and we should only seperate out x women if there is a reasonable way to seperate all the contents of the category in some other way. Category:Vanuatuan writers only has a total of 3 article in all. So I do not thin at that point splitting the 3 article category at all is needed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:18, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- What are the ERGS rules? WP:ERGS or Wikipedia:ERGS rules or something similar gives no results. Where do you get this, and why do you call them ERGS rules? Fram (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- The link is Wikipedia:OCEGRS. Overcateegorization by EGRS. I guess I also reversed the order. That explains the very large number of guidelines in this matter. The non-diffusing rules set out there are regularly not followed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:11, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks. OCEGRS doesn't apply though, that is about ethnicity, not about nationality. It also has nothing as far as I can see about "last rung" categories, no idea what you mean by that. If you mean that a "women" category may never be the final category in a tree, then I think you are completely mistaken: as soon as you have a "women" category somewhere in a tree, you are most likely to end with a "women" category as well. For example, Category:Vanuatuan women writers is the last rung of Category:Women writers by nationality. Removing the "last rung" only moves the problem up one level.
- Or do you mean the "Ghettoization: final rung" section? Then I think you have completely misunderstood it. All it says is that the "women" category shouldn't be the only category, not that it shouldn't exist. It says things like "the person should be left in the un-gendered parent category alongside the gendered subcategory until some other relevant sub-categorization criterion is in place.", it never says that the person should be moved out of a gendered category or be upmerged. Fram (talk) 16:25, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- CCEGRS applies to categories about women, and which categories by women we should and should not have. That is the context I was mentioning it in here.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:14, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comments like "We have recently upmerged a whole slew of there very narrow by nationality categories because they are clearly in violation of the last rung rule. " sure made it sound as if you thought EGRS applied to "by nationality" categories. And nothing in EGRS supports the "last rung" = "delete" approach you seem to read in it. Feel free to quote the parts I have missed which do support your position though. Fram (talk) 17:44, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- CCEGRS applies to categories about women, and which categories by women we should and should not have. That is the context I was mentioning it in here.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:14, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- The link is Wikipedia:OCEGRS. Overcateegorization by EGRS. I guess I also reversed the order. That explains the very large number of guidelines in this matter. The non-diffusing rules set out there are regularly not followed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:11, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- These are the rules that govern how we create categories for women and several other related categories, e standard for ethnicity for example. One of the things they say is in general we should not create "last rung categories". These are categories where we seperate out women, or an ethnic group, as the only sub-cat of a more general category. So we should have no x women category that is the only category of of an x category, and we should only seperate out x women if there is a reasonable way to seperate all the contents of the category in some other way. Category:Vanuatuan writers only has a total of 3 article in all. So I do not thin at that point splitting the 3 article category at all is needed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:18, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- If merging directly to Category:Women writers would be problematic, could we not create an intermediate category for Oceanian women writers? I might do that next. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 06:12, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Women writers should not be a container category, I removed that notice. That is a clear set up of a mess with ERGS rules. ERGS rules say that we should not have women categories as last rung categories. In some cases by nationality writers categories are too small to reasonably exppect multiple rungs, so splitting all women writers out by nationality is not reasonable. We have recently upmerged a whole slew of there very narrow by nationality categories because they are clearly in violation of the last rung rule. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to right great wrongs. The purpose of categories is to navigate between articles, not to reflect on biases of any kind. If we have enough articles to justify a category we create a category, if we only have a very small number of articles we put them in a larger category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:00, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I will try to explain this one more time. If we have say Category:Tongan physicists and it has no sub-cats, we should not just create Category:Tongan women physcists. We should only create a women sub-cat if we can sub-divide Tongan physcists in some other way. So if we cannot we would put the article in Category:Tongan women scientists, in Women physicists and in Tongan scientists. That at least is how not doing last rung works, and not doing last rung applies to all traits covered by ERGS. That is what I am saying. However even if we do not apply the last rung rule to women categories, there is no good reason to have categories with this few articles, even if we are to decide in some cases we can have last rung women categories, having 1 article ones is not reasonable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:19, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge, makes it easier to navigate from e.g. Grace Mera Molisa to other articles about Vanuatuan writers and to other articles about women writers. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:56, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- But makes it harder for people coming from e.g. Fijian women writers or from Category:Solomon Islands women writers (for as long as that is allowed to exist) to find Vanuatuan women writers. And the "easier" you give as reason is "one or two clicks less", the "harder" I give is "completely removed from a logical place to look for them", which seems a lot worse, not just an equivalent. Fram (talk) 17:16, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- No, see discussion above. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:08, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Category:Women writers by nationality currently has 217 subcategories. I don't think that there would be a meaningful difference. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 06:12, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Er, yes? Now, if you want to find Vanuatuan ones, you find the subcat. In the future, when all small cats have disappeared, you will in this case have 9 or 10 cats less, and 20 or so loose articles instead. How is that better or even just as easy to find the Vanuatuan one in this tree as it is now? Fram (talk) 20:51, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry; I appear to have misinterpreted you. I thought that you meant that readers who were on a article about a Vanuatuan women writer then clicked on the link to Category:Women writers at the bottom of the page would have to know to go to Category:Women writers by nationality first then to its subcategories in order to be able to find women writers from specific other countries like Fiji or the Solomon Islands. I apologize for misunderstanding you. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 04:14, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks. It´s easy to misread (or missay) things in these longwinded and domewhat vomplex discussions. Fram (talk) 14:22, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry; I appear to have misinterpreted you. I thought that you meant that readers who were on a article about a Vanuatuan women writer then clicked on the link to Category:Women writers at the bottom of the page would have to know to go to Category:Women writers by nationality first then to its subcategories in order to be able to find women writers from specific other countries like Fiji or the Solomon Islands. I apologize for misunderstanding you. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 04:14, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- Er, yes? Now, if you want to find Vanuatuan ones, you find the subcat. In the future, when all small cats have disappeared, you will in this case have 9 or 10 cats less, and 20 or so loose articles instead. How is that better or even just as easy to find the Vanuatuan one in this tree as it is now? Fram (talk) 20:51, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- But makes it harder for people coming from e.g. Fijian women writers or from Category:Solomon Islands women writers (for as long as that is allowed to exist) to find Vanuatuan women writers. And the "easier" you give as reason is "one or two clicks less", the "harder" I give is "completely removed from a logical place to look for them", which seems a lot worse, not just an equivalent. Fram (talk) 17:16, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge LibStar (talk) 03:36, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: Category:Vanuatuan women writers now has two pages. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 06:12, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
Support merging Category:Vanuatuan poets because it only has one page.Alt merge Category:Vanuatuan journalists to Category:Vanuatuan writers and Category:Oceanian journalists now that the latter category has been created. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 07:58, 11 December 2025 (UTC)- Having realized that Category:Oceanian poets exists, I now favor merging Category:Vanuatuan poets to that instead of Category:Poets. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 03:17, 15 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment There are still only 3 total articles under Category:Vanuatuan writers. The number of articles has not increased. I still think that is too few to justify diffusing at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:58, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I am sure we used to have a rule about not breaking out last rung categories. I guess it was removed. I still think that splitting categories under 10 articles total on gender grounds is not justified. Especially when the entire category has under 5 articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:39, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Again try to say it from a different perspective as well. When you have "X" articles in a general "women occupation" category, it is perfectly normal to divide this by country, which will include small and large groupings. Voila, the "the entire category has under 5 articles" argument suddenly vanishes, instead of considering this purely as a member of a 5-article category or so this is now "a member of a 1000s-members-category", that of the poets, which has been divided by country. Fram (talk) 13:57, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- John Pack Lambert is not proposing getting rid of all women writers by nationality categories, only the ones where the corresponding writers by nationality category is very small (specifically having fewer than five articles). Based on using my browser's find function, Category:Writers by nationality has:
- one child category with one page and zero subcategories (Category:Tuvaluan writers)
- zero child categories with two pages and zero subcategories
- one child category with three pages and zero subcategories (Category:Saint Kitts and Nevis writers)
- one child category with four pages and zero subcategories (Category:Palauan writers)
- and three child categories with subcategories where their total number of articles (including those in subcategories) seems to be less than five (Category:Federated States of Micronesia writers (three total), Category:Anguillan writers (four total), and Category:New Caledonian writers (three total)).
- This would mean that upmerging any subcategories of those five categories for women writers and poets would add at most eighteen pages each to Category:Women writers and Category:Poets, which is much less than the thousands of members that you claimed. (Of course, eighteen is an overestimate because not all writers are female poets.) Sure, the last part of my list is probably not comprehensive because I did not check that child categories that appeared to have 5–8 total members had non-overlapping child categories and did not contain any pages also contained by subcategories, but taking this into account would not cause much of an increase, and it could also mean that the total number of pages in Category:Federated States of Micronesia writers, Category:Anguillan writers, and Category:New Caledonian writers and their subcategories is less than I judged. Thus, I do not see John Pack Lambert's proposal resulting in thousands of pages being directly placed into either Category:Women writers or Category:Poets.
I would like to point your attention to Category:Federated States of Micronesia writers in particular. It has one page and three child categories, Category:Federated States of Micronesia women writers, Category:Federated States of Micronesia historians, and Category:Federated States of Micronesia poets. Of these three child categories, Category:Federated States of Micronesia historians has one page and zero child categories, and Category:Federated States of Micronesia women writers and Category:Federated States of Micronesia poets have zero direct pages and the same sole child category Category:Federated States of Micronesia women poets, which has only one page. Thus, Category:Federated States of Micronesia women writers and Category:Federated States of Micronesia poets are duplicated redundant layers. Even if Category:Federated States of Micronesia women poets had enough members to justify existence, I would not see why we need redundant layers.
Also, if you are worried about cluttering up Category:Women writers and Category:Poets with pages not put into subcategories, what is wrong with using intermediate categories that are large enough to justify splitting but small enough to not be (so prone to being) cluttered by undiffused pages, such as how Category:Oceanian women writers is a now-existent child category of Category:Oceanian writers? Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 19:06, 11 December 2025 (UTC)- You don't reply to what I actually said (JPL said there were only a handful of articles at the bottom of the tree, I said that this was only true for one of the trees the article is in, and in another tree there are 1000s of articles at the bottom of the tree, spread across many subcats). And then you analyse a different cat (writers vs. women writers), which doesn't help either. And, well, holywalloftext, Batman?
- Anyway, I'll try to rephrase. we have a category with thousands of articles: women writers. These are divided into 200+ subcats, including large and small countries. John Pack Lambert said "I still think that splitting categories under 10 articles total on gender grounds is not justified. Especially when the entire category has under 5 articles.", but my counterargument "splitting categories over 100 articles total on country grounds is fully justified, no matter if some of the subcats then have under 5 articles." There simply is no benefit for the reader in taking a few articles out of this fully developed, logical system, it only makes things more confusing. The "3 articles is no subcat for country, 4 articles is subcat for country" is an arbitrary approach which is completely opaque for the non-initiated, i.e. the people we are doing this for. Fram (talk) 21:04, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- I think that we have differing understandings of what John Pack Lambert meant, but I'm not sure whose is correct. You seem to have interpreted that he thought that the criterion for splitting Category:Vanuatuan writers by gender should be the size of Category:Women writers (and likewise for other categories for writers of a particular nationality); is my interpretation of you correct? (My interpretation of Mr. Lambert was that he thought that the criterion for splitting Category:Vanuatuan writers by gender should be the size of Category:Vanuatuan writers (and likewise for other categories for writers of a particular nationality).)
- I am not against splitting out large categories in general; see here for one example. However, I do not believe that one-article categories should exist, and I have created Category:Oceanian women writers and Category:Oceanian journalists as a compromise to get rid of the one-article categories without hindering navigation. I do not think that merging to those categories would be very confusing for readers because it would immediately be obvious (to readers who clicked on one of those categories from the bottom of an article about a relevant Vanuatuan writer) how to find women writers or journalists from countries with similar cultures (as opposed to having to know to go through the intermediate layer Category:Women writers by nationality or Category:Journalists by nationality). Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 23:42, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- John Pack Lambert is not proposing getting rid of all women writers by nationality categories, only the ones where the corresponding writers by nationality category is very small (specifically having fewer than five articles). Based on using my browser's find function, Category:Writers by nationality has:
- Again try to say it from a different perspective as well. When you have "X" articles in a general "women occupation" category, it is perfectly normal to divide this by country, which will include small and large groupings. Voila, the "the entire category has under 5 articles" argument suddenly vanishes, instead of considering this purely as a member of a 5-article category or so this is now "a member of a 1000s-members-category", that of the poets, which has been divided by country. Fram (talk) 13:57, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment With the narrow category guidelines we ask that in general individual categories be large enough that they navigate between at least some articles. Since there are nearly 200 countries, splitting categories out fully by country when they reach 100 articles would lead to almost all categories having very few articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:55, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Alt merge Category:Vanuatuan journalists to Category:Vanuatuan writers and Category:Oceanian journalists per the Nth User. If that doesn't have consensus, 2nd choice would be original nom per WP:NARROWCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:36, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Agree, as continent categories exist they should be used. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:45, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: I just realized that Category:Oceanian poets exists, which seems like a better merge target for Category:Vanuatuan poets than Category:Poets. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 03:17, 15 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Antigua and Barbuda singers
[edit]- Nominator's rationale There are only 4 total biographies in Category:Antigua and Barbuda musicians. I do not think it is needed to split the category out more than that. I think it will be much more helpful to navigation if we upmerge the articles to the parent categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:18, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per all these many other misguided attempts to remove small cats from large nationality-based trees because it somehow is helpful to have all countries in a by-country category, except for a handful of small ones. Never mind that e.g. category:singers is a container cat and should not contain any articles. Fram (talk) 13:49, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge, makes it easier to navigate from e.g. King Short Shirt to other articles about Antigua and Barbuda musicians]] and to other articles about calypsonians. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:58, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- But makes it harder for people coming from e.g. Category:Saint Lucian singers or Category:Trinidad and Tobago singers to find these. And the "easier" you give as reason is "one or two clicks less", the "harder" I give is "completely removed from a logical place to look for them", which seems a lot worse, not just an equivalent. Fram (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- No, see discussion above. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:09, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- But makes it harder for people coming from e.g. Category:Saint Lucian singers or Category:Trinidad and Tobago singers to find these. And the "easier" you give as reason is "one or two clicks less", the "harder" I give is "completely removed from a logical place to look for them", which seems a lot worse, not just an equivalent. Fram (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge LibStar (talk) 03:36, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge for now with no objection to future recreation if the article count grows substantially. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:44, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Comment For what it is worth Category:Calypsonians has only 11 sub-cats by nationality and 12 biographical articles directly in that category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:47, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Pashto mass media
[edit]- Propose merging Category:Pashto mass media to Category:Pashto-language mass media
- Nominator's rationale: Same thing. Gotitbro (talk) 13:10, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Reverse merge, "-language" is unnecessary. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:01, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Forawrd merge, match all other language subcategories of Category:Mass media by language. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 17:40, 14 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Honduran film directors
[edit]- Propose merging Category:Honduran film directors to Category:North American film directors
- Propose merging Category:Curaçao film directors to Category:North American film directors
- Nominator's rationale: Only 1 entry. LibStar (talk) 05:20, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge, this is not helpful for navigation. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:11, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep, much more logicand user-friendly to have a balanced tree (with all countries for which we have at least one entry as a cat) than to only keep the larger ones separate, and dump all the others together. Having the one extra layer is actually much clearer for navigation. Never mind the usual carelessness of these nominations, where e.g. this would mean that they would disappear from e.g. Category:Film directors by nationality and Category:Honduran people by occupation. How this is supposed to help navigation is rather unclear. Fram (talk) 09:55, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Upmerge to Category:Film directors. I do not think we should be splitting categories by non-nationality level units, but I also do not think we need these 1 article categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:13, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- But Category:Film directors is a container category, and even if it weren't, I don't think that having loose articles in there would be a good idea due to the large number of countries in the world. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 03:40, 15 December 2025 (UTC)
- Keep, per User:Fram. Deletion does not seem necessary, nor helpful.--~2025-39336-35 (talk) 17:51, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge Slicing articles into 1 article categories requires more clicks, but no objection to future recreation if/when multiple articles can be added. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:46, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- If one extra click makes it much easier to find what you want (or to ignore what you don't want) in a category like Category:Film directors by nationality (181 subcats at the moment), then why is the "more clicks" issue more persuasive than the "harder to find" one? The merge proposed would remove this article completely from Category:Film directors by nationality, but we would have saved one or two clicks elsewhere. How is this kind of tradeoff even seriously considered? Are we swamped by complaints from readers who have to click too often to get to the Hondurian film director (but have no issue with needing just as many clicks for French, Dutch, Brazilian, or Australian film directors apparently). The more I see these discussions, the more I think we need a community discussion about this situation, as it looks as if a small group of CfD regulars (with the best intentions) just follows some rules without considering the actual impact their decisions have, thereby making our category system worse every single day. Fram (talk) 09:29, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Support merging Category:Honduran film directors to Category:North American film directors due to underpopulation. Replace Category:Curaçao film directors with Category:Film directors from the Dutch Caribbean (and populate appropriately) because there are fourteen pages that would fit. (My second choice would be an alt merge to Category:North American film directors and Category:Dutch film directors.) Strong oppose any merge to Category:Film directors because that is a container category. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 03:40, 15 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Timber rafting in fiction
[edit]- Nominator's rationale: Only 1 article. Οἶδα (talk) 05:01, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom and it is also not a defining characteristic of the article. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:13, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Delete as categorization by a trivial trait. If we had such a category it would be properly named Category:Fiction about timber rafting but it is not evident that there is are any articles that would fit in it. I am also not convinced we would need to distinguish it from the more broad Category Category:Fictional about rafting.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:07, 14 December 2025 (UTC)
Namur (province) and Namur (city)
[edit]- Propose renaming Category:Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Namur
- Propose renaming Category:Buildings and structures in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Buildings and structures in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Airports in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Airports in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Castles in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Castles in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Christian monasteries in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Christian monasteries in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Churches in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Churches in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Lists of protected heritage sites in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Lists of protected heritage sites in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Museums in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Museums in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Railway stations in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Railway stations in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Sports venues in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Sports venues in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Geography of Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Geography of Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Arrondissements of Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Arrondissements of Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Landforms of Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Landforms of Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Lakes of Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Lakes of Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Rivers of Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Rivers of Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Populated places in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Populated places in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Municipalities of Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Municipalities of Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Former municipalities of Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Former municipalities of Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Sub-municipalities of Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Sub-municipalities of Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Namur geography stubs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Namur Province geography stubs
- Propose renaming Category:Governors of Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Governors of Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:History of Namur (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:History of Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Organisations based in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Organisations based in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Companies based in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Companies based in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:People from Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:People from Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Cyclists from Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Cyclists from Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Footballers from Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Footballers from Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Sport in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Sport in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Sports competitions in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Sports competitions in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Sportspeople from Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Sportspeople from Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Tourist attractions in Namur (province) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Tourist attractions in Namur Province
- Propose renaming Category:Namur (city) templates (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Namur templates
- Propose renaming Category:Buildings and structures in Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Buildings and structures in Namur
- Propose renaming Category:Geography of Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Geography of Namur
- Propose renaming Category:Populated places in Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Populated places in Namur
- Propose renaming Category:Sub-municipalities of Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Sub-municipalities of Namur
- Propose renaming Category:History of Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:History of Namur
- Propose renaming Category:Sieges of Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Sieges of Namur
- Propose renaming Category:People from Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:People from Namur
- Propose renaming Category:Sport in Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Sport in Namur
- Propose renaming Category:Sportspeople from Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Sportspeople from Namur
- Propose renaming Category:Footballers from Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Footballers from Namur
- Propose renaming Category:Transport in Namur (city) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Transport in Namur
- Nominator's rationale: I'm aware that there was a CFD on February 20, 2022, but a lot of categories were left out, including those concerning Namur Province. In any other case, I would have listed this at CFDs under the C2B and C2D criteria, but I'd like a more thorough consensus. - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 04:36, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Support Province, oppose removing (city), in the context of categories just "Namur" is too ambiguous. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:17, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Rename All per WP:C2D. If there's not a consensus to rename all, then rename the ones with the consensus. I'm conceptually open to rename the city of Namur but that should start with an WP:RM. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:40, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- Rename all per WP:C2D and consistency. There are many similar cases, and even in Belgium there are Category:Antwerp + Category:Antwerp Province and Category:Liège + Category:Liège Province. This is exactly the same case that should not be judged differently. FromCzech (talk) 06:53, 17 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Stellation diagrams
[edit]- Nominator's rationale: WP:OCEPON (not enough existing directly related articles or subcategories). fgnievinski (talk) 03:00, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Shouldn't it be merged to Category:Polyhedral stellation? Marcocapelle (talk) 07:27, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Merge to Category:Polyhedral stellation. It's reasonable to get rid of this too-small category and merge the few entries into the most suitable parent categories. All three articles are more about polyhedral stellation than general diagrams, so it is best to merge them there. --
{{u|Mark viking}} {Talk}10:35, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
Steve Lacy categories
[edit]- Propose renaming Category:Steve Lacy (guitarist) songs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Steve Lacy songs
- Propose renaming Category:Steve Lacy (guitarist) albums (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Steve Lacy albums
- Propose renaming Category:Songs written by Steve Lacy (guitarist) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Songs written by Steve Lacy
- Propose renaming Category:Steve Lacy (guitarist) concert tours (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Steve Lacy concert tours
- Nominator's rationale: Steve Lacy (guitarist) is currently a redirect to Steve Lacy, so any mentions of "Steve Lacy (guitarist)" in these categories should be replaced with "Steve Lacy". RedShellMomentum ☎ ✎ 03:49, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
- support renaming! HighlandFacts (talk) 05:35, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
- Support renaming for nominator's reasons Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 04:10, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose, there was also Steve Lacy (saxophonist), so category names become too ambiguous. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:56, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose since people do not have to look at categories when adding it is very important that we make sure categories are not at all ambiguous.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:22, 5 December 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, GothicGolem29 (Talk) 02:53, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose due to the ambiguity referenced above. Οἶδα (talk) 05:09, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Canis lupus dingo
[edit]- Propose renaming Category:Canis lupus dingo to Category:Dingo
- Nominator's rationale: Main article should be Dingo, not Canis lupus dingo. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:01, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
- Comment, the category appears to be named this way so that article New Guinea singing dog can also be part of it. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:06, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, GoldRomean (talk) 15:09, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Canis lupus dingo appears independently notable, so it passes WP:NONDEF. There is no argument presented that refining the scope to dingoes only would be helpful to readers. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:07, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, GothicGolem29 (Talk) 02:52, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
Category:Estrella Media stations
[edit]- Propose renaming Category:Estrella Media stations to Category:MediaCo stations
- Nominator's rationale: Estrella Media merged with MediaCo in 2025, and the article was renamed, but not the category. OWaunTon (talk) 16:25, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, GothicGolem29 (Talk) 02:51, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Rename per WP:C2D. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:13, 12 December 2025 (UTC)