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Merge proposal

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was to not merge

Proposed merge of Darfur genocide with 2023 Darfur genocide

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Article currently has one source and should simply be an addition to the existing article as an additional section. Marleeashton (talk) 02:46, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose this isnt a section o the genocide, its a new beginning. Escalation in violence only begun this year. Lukt64 (talk) 03:30, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Whole different war, huge massacres and the escalation was all this year. Subaru2000 (talk) 14:35, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Massive escalation, clearly distinct from what happened before. Article should be expanded, not deleted. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 16:22, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to Masalit genocide. Most of the genocide nomenclatures refer to the Masalit, instead of all ethnic groups of Darfur as a whole such as in the 2000's genocide. Jebiguess (talk) 05:20, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
support this but let's put it to vote once the #Requested move 12 November 2023 is closed FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: this article is about the recent events and far different from the killing during the Darfur war FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: The scale is not quite the same as in 2003. Borgenland (talk) 11:26, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 12 November 2023

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 18:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023 Masalit genocide → 2023 Masalit massacres2023 Masalit massacres – Events can only be termed a genocide in wikivoice, per the WP:NPOV policy, if there is a consensus in sources that they are genocide. So far, the majority of sources are calling it "mass killing", "killings", "massacres", "massacre", "summary execution", "ethnically driven killings", "atrocities" etc. The current title is not the WP:COMMONNAME and does not satisfy the criteria in WP:POVTITLE. (t · c) buidhe 07:06, 12 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 (talk) 00:32, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The sources you cite use these words to refer to the individual massacres happening, not for the event as a whole. Your first source explains that the latest atrocities are part of a wider campaign by the RSF and its allied militias to eradicate the non-Arab Masalit tribe from West Darfur, according to activists and survivors, and that the governor of West Darfur, Khamis Abubbakr, [...] described the killings in his region as a “genocide”. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 08:01, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of events are called a genocide by political leaders in an attempt to gain attention for them. Most of these events never gain a consensus that they are in fact genocide (see the research covered in the book The Problems of Genocide). Wikipedia is supposed to follow, not lead, on these designations. (t · c) buidhe 14:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose comment: see the 2023 Masalit genocide#Reactions section FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support The two sources given in the lead para do not support genocide. The Economist has it in the title but the article content does not support it, see WP:HEADLINES. Can consider Masalit genocide accusation(s) if that can be adequately sourced. Selfstudier (talk) 15:22, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per FuzzyMagma. This article has some substance contributing to the genocide allegations. Jebiguess (talk) 19:34, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, labelling an event as a genocide is a very strong claim. "Genocide" has a specific meaning, and whether its meaning can be assigned to a particular act or series of acts is often a matter of legal and scholarly debate. en.wiki should not be pre-empting that debate on a current event in a WP:YESPOV assertion (unless we are reflecting a very common noun or moniker, which in this case as a descriptive title we are not). A well-written article laying out in an impartial tone the facts of the matter, as well as reflecting key opinions from reliable sources, should allow the reader to come to their own assessment on the matter. CMD (talk) 01:51, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment we could rename it to Allegations of genocide of Masalit during the War in Sudan (2023) similar to the pages for Ukraine and Palestine. Jebiguess (talk) 20:05, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose this suggestion. Those two are very debated and politicized. They're the exception. We shouldn't be making these pages to address all the claims that X thing is genocide. Such things are very common in nationalistic historiography. All this without intention of belittling these massacres. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:11, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the thing: the ones alleging the situation is a genocide is the United Nations. Josep Borrell warned of a genocide, experts on the topic like Cameron Hudson have called the situation ethnic cleansing, and the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights equated the situation to the 2003 genocide. The original whistleblower of the Darfur genocide also called this one a genocide as well.
The Janjaweed themselves have also stated they are committing ethnic cleansing. By referring to the page as the 2023 Masalit massacres, it downplays the coordinated attempts by the RSF and Janjaweed in wiping out the Masalit. If not allegations, Ethnic cleansing of Masalit during the War in Sudan (2023) works just as well. Jebiguess (talk) 05:52, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not there might be scope for an article on allegations, it can't be this one as there needs to be a page for the actual events the allegations refer to. CMD (talk) 07:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
agree with CMD. Let's build the article first and discuss the naming after, the sources normally decides the naming and not the other way around. For now the most glaring issue is "genocide" vs. "massacre" FuzzyMagma (talk) 17:03, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - genocide is a term that can't be used lightly (doing so would be against WP:NPOV). As it stands now, there doesn't appear to be a sufficient use of the term to override NPOV. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Masalit genocide

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Masalit genocide or Darfur genocide is more befitting. Many sources describe it as such. The death toll is probably much higher but not known as a result of little records and how little information is coming out of Sudan

https://www.aljazeera.net/amp/politics/2024/6/4/واشنطن-بوست-إبادة-جماعية-جديدة-تخيم

https://www.alhurra.com/sudan/2024/05/31/ناجون-عمليات-إبادة-جماعية-في-دارفور-عالقون-في-معركة-وحشية-جديدة

https://www.aljazeera.net/amp/politics/2024/5/29/مجلة-أميركية-لماذا-يتجاهل-العالم

https://amp.dw.com/ar/الفاعلون-الدوليون-ومواقفهم-من-خطر-إبادة-جماعية-في-السودان/a-69294623


The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 10:48, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Great Mule of Eupatoria please do not go around renaming links to this page, as you did in Misterei massacre. Genocide is a legal term, see the discussion just above this section. FuzzyMagma (talk) 19:26, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to add that there are newer sources too:
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-in-sudan "RSF Arab militias have focused their genocide against the Masalit people in West Darfur."
https://www.cfr.org/blog/sudans-civilians-deserve-better "the Masalit people of Darfur are the victims of a vicious genocidal campaign"
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/11/16/the-world-is-ignoring-war-genocide-and-famine-in-sudan "the world is ignoring war, genocide and famine in Sudan"
https://theconversation.com/sudan-is-burning-and-foreign-powers-are-benefiting-whats-in-it-for-the-uae-238695 "Human Rights Watch has accused the Rapid Support Forces of committing genocide"
We should probably move the page. Bremps... 15:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Or start a discussion to move the page as we did before FuzzyMagma (talk) 15:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
How do you do that as in set up a move RM? The past move was a year old, which was before the severity of the massacres became more clear so it is definitely outdated The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 11:25, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 February 2025

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 19:26, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Masalit massacres (2023–present) → Masalit genocide – The previous move, a year old was when the scale of the massacres at the time was not known due to generally poor media coverage. In addition to that, the massacres have only increased in intensity and the actions of the RSF have been rightfully described as genocide by many sources


https://www.aljazeera.net/amp/politics/2024/6/4/واشنطن-بوست-إبادة-جماعية-جديدة-تخيم https://www.alhurra.com/sudan/2024/05/31/ناجون-عمليات-إبادة-جماعية-في-دارفور-عالقون-في-معركة-وحشية-جديدة https://www.aljazeera.net/amp/politics/2024/5/29/مجلة-أميركية-لماذا-يتجاهل-العالم https://amp.dw.com/ar/الفاعلون-الدوليون-ومواقفهم-من-خطر-إبادة-جماعية-في-السودان/a-69294623

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-in-sudan "RSF Arab militias have focused their genocide against the Masalit people in West Darfur." https://www.cfr.org/blog/sudans-civilians-deserve-better "the Masalit people of Darfur are the victims of a vicious genocidal campaign" https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/11/16/the-world-is-ignoring-war-genocide-and-famine-in-sudan "the world is ignoring war, genocide and famine in Sudan" https://theconversation.com/sudan-is-burning-and-foreign-powers-are-benefiting-whats-in-it-for-the-uae-238695 "Human Rights Watch has accused the Rapid Support Forces of committing genocide" The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:33, 4 February 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (Goodbye!) 03:52, 12 February 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Sophisticatedevening (talk) 21:29, 22 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support This is a heavy term, but it appears justified from sources documenting the systematic slaughter of the Masalit of Sudan by the RSF. I would be hesitant to support given the relative dearth of sources for such terminology compared to something like the Rwandan genocide, but I cannot find any sources stating that it is not a genocide. This implies that there isn't much of a debate— the entire war is just a neglected topic in international news. Hence the support vote despite relatively limited sourcing compared to, again, Rwanda. Bremps... 06:39, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Additional sources/evidence:
- https://archive.vn/7xDXB
- https://archive.ph/Do0c3
- https://archive.is/1NkD7
Bremps... 06:47, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The legal community is already coalescing around a consensus that the RSF campaign in West Darfur constitutes genocide. As human rights lawyers specializing in atrocity prevention, we chaired the first international inquiry into the genocide with dozens of jurists and scholars around the world, concluding that the RSF is responsible for committing genocide in Darfur.
- Mutasim Ali and Yonah Diamond, Foreign Policy Bremps... 20:42, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now, per Bremps this is a heavy term, but I do not think the move to that term should have a bar of use just in news sources. The key events of this year was the determination by the US State department that there was a genocide[1], and the announcement by the ICC that it is preparing arrest warrants[2]. These are significant events, but they are recent and this move would be moving forward at a pace Wikipedia should not move, especially as the move will not affect any of the naming WP:CRITERIA. Side note, the proposed move should be to Masalit genocide (small g), in line with the Rwandan genocide article. CMD (talk) 09:49, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The broader Darfur genocide (2023-present) works better as other groups, such as the Fur people, are also being targeted. Bremps... 23:03, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This could also work. The main point being is that the RSF’s actions in Sudan and specifically Darfur have been rightly described by many sources as a genocide, and that the death toll of this “hidden genocide” is likely much higher than what is known due to the lack of attention to Sudan as well as the general media blackout and generally scarce reports from the region (like the Tigray genocide) The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:20, 7 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is not about "what works better"! you need to find a source first. We do not come up with names. You need to provide analysis for the sources and then suggest a name not the other way around. As for now, and from one reliable source that directly mentions its a "genocide against the Masalit" and not any other group. FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:20, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Masalit genocide or Darfur genocide (2023-present)? — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (Goodbye!) 03:52, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Bremps. Many other sources (BBC, HRW,https://www.raoulwallenbergcentre.org/en/news/2024-04-14) also note either a genocide, or a risk of one. Horsers (talk) 10:47, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
these sources does not say its a genocide.
  • The BBC says "risk of Sudan genocide" and Sudan's Darfur region is facing a growing risk of genocide" that is not the same as genocide.
  • The HRW is talking about ethnic cleansing, not genocide. These are not the same.
  • The Raoul Wallenberg Centre is the only sources that support using "genocide" to describe the atrocities committed by the RSF saying "genocide against the Masalit"
FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:16, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: First, please do not just suggests names without finding a source first. For now most sources that support the genocide claim talk about the "Masalit genocide".
Analysis for the all of the sources provided here:
  • ☒N The BBC says "risk of Sudan genocide" and Sudan's Darfur region is facing a growing risk of genocide" that is not the same as genocide.
  • ☒N The HRW is talking about ethnic cleansing, not genocide. These are not the same.
  • ☒N Aljazeera (in Arabic) mentions "warning of a genocide looming over the Darfur region"
  • ☒N Alhurra (in Arabic) mentions that "survivors of previous genocide in Darfur are caught in another brutal battle" and cites an article from The Wall Stress Journal for this line.
  • ☒N Aljazeera (in Arabic) only mentions genocide in the title and in this opinion piece (which Aljazeera claiming that is came from an "American Journal" that is not linked anywhere and the word genocide used again in the article to talk about Darfur genocide (2003-2005).
  • ☒N DW (in Arabic) also talks about "dangers of genocide in Sudan"
  • ☒N The Conversation cited Macklemore (rapper) who used the term genocide, and HRW with a link to a page that mentions ethnic cleansing (not genocide)
  • ☒N The Economist mentions "America and several NGOs said that this [killing of the Massalit] amounted to genocide, though others disagreed.
  • ☒N The Economist never described the events as a genocide with focus on Darfur genocide (2003-2005)
  • ☒N FP this is an opinion article from someone working at the Raoul Wallenberg Centre, see the end of the list.
  • checkY The Economist mentions genocide in the title and describe what happened to the Massalit as genocide.
  • checkY Council on foreign Relations mentions "the Masalit people of Darfur are the victims of a vicious genocidal campaign
  • checkY Genocide Watch says "The systematic RSF massacres of members of the Masalit ethnic group should be recognized as genocide since they violate Genocide Convention, Article II (a)"
  • checkY The Raoul Wallenberg Centre is the only sources that support using "genocide" to describe the atrocities committed by the RSF saying "genocide against the Masalit"
Other sources that describes the killing of the Masalit as a genocide:
Relisting comment: Relisting to gain a more thorough consensus Sophisticatedevening (talk) 21:29, 22 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resources for page move to "genocide"

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World Peace Foundation "The evidence for genocidal acts by the RSF, against the Masalit and other communities elsewhere in Sudan, is strong."

"Global Centre for Responsibility to Protect Genocide and atrocity crimes are being committed now in North Darfur."

Analyst News "International organizations and rights groups, including Refugees International, have published statements demanding the UAE stop funding the genocide in Sudan. Following outcry from his fans, American rapper Macklemore even canceled his show in Dubai, explicitly citing the UAE’s role in the genocide."

Journal of Genocide Research "More recently, the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) militia in Sudan committed, in its ongoing war with the incumbent regime, a series of genocidal massacres against particular ethnicities in Darfur."

Note the international genocide case was thrown out earlier this year on jurisdictional issues, not merits. Bremps... 01:50, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 28 October 2025

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. A clear consensus has emerged to use the term "genocide" in the title of this article, with various supporting sources having been provided in the below discussion. However, participants were divided over whether to move the article to the proposed title, "Masalit genocide", or to move it to a broader title. The recent split of "Darfur genocide (2023–present)" into a new article that covers broader events clears a path for this article to focus specifically on events that target the Masalit. Therefore, I am closing this discussion with a move to the proposed title, but it may need to be revisited if the newly split article does not survive. As for the title of that article, those who have expressed a preference for a differing broader title may start a discussion at the talk page of the article if desired. Editors may also wish to consider the possible additions to Wikipedia:In the news and the List of genocides article that were proposed in this discussion. Also, anyone who disputes this closure may revert it without notifying me. (non-admin closure) –Gluonz talk contribs 02:20, 18 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Masalit massacres (2023–present) → Masalit genocide – A lot has happened on the ground since a previous RM was closed as no consensus months nearly 2 years ago. In addition, there seems to be a zeitgeist within WP to adopt inclusive definitions of genocide, as seen at, inter alia, Talk:Gaza genocide. Seems like a good time to revisit this. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 07:44, 28 October 2025 (UTC) Blurb edited for correctness 21:48, 29 October 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Thanks, Glasspalace (talk | contribs) 01:36, 12 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support it’s been long overdue, what the RSF is doing is undoubtedly genocide. The question is wether to keep this article restricted to the masalit people or expanded to the greater Darfur region which is experiencing similar atrocities for the same motives The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 08:06, 28 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, there’s definitely reports of other ethnic groups like the Zaghawa being systematically massacred as well. I suppose Darfur genocide (2023–present) could work as well but one thing at a time. Cheers, RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support beyond a doubt. There is a genocide going on and most reports describe at as such. The Gaza Genocide page was allowed to have its name despite a fair amount of media refusing to call it a genocide, because it has consensus to be called a genocide. This genocide has very little opposition in the media. Pencilceaser123 (talk) 22:11, 28 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This could probably be renamed to "second darfur genocide" or something to allow for massacres in other parts of sudan. Pencilceaser123 (talk) 23:00, 28 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is definitionally a genocide and the general consensus points that way too. There is a clear motive behind the deaths. I would even argue that it should've been renamed earlier. Ktheone (talk) 11:55, 29 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't be called a genocide. As @Pencilceaser123 pointed out, the Gaza genocide also is called a genocide, and arguably this genocide is even more agreed upon that it is genocide. I agree with @RadioactiveBoulevardier that the article should be call Darfur Genocide (2023-present). Atich9 (talk) 18:44, 29 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Per nom. Jebiguess (talk) 20:10, 29 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Although I have already commented on this. I think as there are no objections, we should not wait a few more days. This must be closed urgently and changed to Darfur Genocide (2023-present) NOW. While wikipedia is not a news source, this will be getting increased attention, and as the genocide is expanding beyond the region and ethnic group technically covered by the article now. It needs to be changed now. Pencilceaser123 (talk) 22:17, 29 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above and the resources I linked earlier. I would like to note that other Black African groups are being targeted by the RSF, so Sudanese genocide (2023-present) would be more appropriate. Bremps... 23:19, 29 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support In addition, it should be also included in the List of genocides article as well as "In the news" frontpage, like it was done with Gaza. Stockenboi (talk) 10:49, 30 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Once this is renamed I will propose that. Pencilceaser123 (talk) 22:50, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is slightly disquieting to see a page covering a likely ongoing genocide of one particular ethnic group be enthusiastically and urgently deemed as not meriting coverage in its own right, especially when no sources have been presented in the discussion. In both news reporting in 2023 and in 2025, as well as in the ICJ case, it is reported that the Masalit are specifically being targeted. That specific targeting is notable, and the current topic of this article. Changing that should require either evidence that reliable sources have shifted to mostly describing the violence as more diffusely targeted, or a WP:NOPAGE argument that details why it would help readers more if there was not a standalone page on the Masalit massacres/genocide. CMD (talk) 17:47, 30 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know how you have interpreted this discussion as denying a page for this genocide. The proposal is firstly just to rename this article to be genocide. And secondly to include other groups which are clearly being killed en masse including thousands in Al fashir as we speak. Those in Al fashir are not Masalit. The masalit genocide could be split off and have its own page, but a larger page for the overall Sudan genocide should exist Pencilceaser123 (talk) 19:36, 30 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The Masalit genocide currently has its own page, supported by refs often specifically about that. CMD (talk) 03:30, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you link it? Might be worth a merge discussion... JulDer Wiki (talk) 04:57, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That's this one, but the wider article to consider regarding presentation is War crimes during the Sudanese civil war (2023–present). CMD (talk) 05:27, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Do you think "RSF Gencoides during the Sudanese Civil War (2023-Present)" (Alternativly "Gencoide the Darfur (2023-Present) or "Second Darfur Gencoide") should be split of from that article, with the various genocides (that is a word you never want to be a plural) gradually split of from it? I think thats fair, and if the result of this discussion is the article being renamed to "Masalit Gencoide" then I will propose that next. Pencilceaser123 (talk) 22:49, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
+1 In my haste to include all groups the RSF are targeting, I might have proposed an overbroad title. I have struck my comment and support a name change to Masalit genocide. See below. Bremps... 20:08, 30 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think Masalit genocide is more fitting particularly as there already exists a page called Darfur genocide. Furthermore, sources which others have provided mention the targeting of the Masalit people. JulDer Wiki (talk) 20:45, 30 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Darfur genocide covers 2003-05 not the present day, so if there was a page that was broader than Masalit that would have to be a new page. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:14, 3 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I see a couple of references here to the Gaza genocide debate, which relied heavily on this list of expert opinions. Does anything similar exist for the Masalit genocide? :EvansHallBear (talk) 18:48, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
ABC News - "And the reason a number of experts have been saying that they believe we are seeing genocide here"
Sudan expert and Executive Director of World Peace Foundation Alex de Waal - "There’s genocide in Sudan."
Yale Humanitarian Labs - "The Yale Humanitarian Research Lab (HRL) welcomes the U.S. Department of State’s announcement of its genocide determination against members of the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) and allied militias..."
Center for International Policy - "The entire world should be appalled by the acts of genocide and other atrocities taking place at this moment in El Fasher." Bremps... 20:00, 1 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I suggested this be added to the list of genocides artcile before and this was the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_genocides/Archive_19#Masalit_Massacres -IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:28, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Including "genocide" in the title is long overdue. I would support Darfur genocide (2023-present) or Second Darfur genocide though, as not only Masalit groups are being targetted. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 19:47, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support: I agree with the above arguments in favour of this change. David A (talk) 21:16, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Could we invoke WP:AVALANCHE? Eleven supports with no opposes. Bremps... 20:00, 1 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, there’s not a single hit on Google Scholar for "masalit genocide". Also couldn’t find "Darfur genocide" not referring to 2003-2005. It seems like !votes supporting the move are original research? Of the sources I could find:
  • de Waal 2025 says The Sudanese catastrophe fits the category of genocide, but this classification does not capture the entirety of what is happening to Sudanese society.
and that’s it. In the absence of a common name, we should probably go with a descriptive one, like Genocide in Darfur (2023–present) Kowal2701 (talk) 20:07, 1 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As long as we recognise this as a genocide and use the most easily Google-search found and commonly used title, I personally do not mind. David A (talk) 20:20, 1 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, regardless a bartender's close would probably be good Kowal2701 (talk) 20:36, 1 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting essay, thanks for linking. Bremps... 20:45, 1 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I always took the proposed name as descriptive rather than a proper noun. Bremps... 20:44, 1 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What about "Sudan Genocide" Pencilceaser123 (talk) 02:25, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Genocide is not occurring across all of Sudan, rather just Darfuri states. There is a case to be made that the RSF's actions in Kordofan and White Nile-Gezira were genocidal, but the literature isn't there to support that just yet. Even then, this is hardly the first case of genocide in Sudanese history, nor does it expand across the country like the Rwandan genocide. Jebiguess (talk) 17:10, 3 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support because it is now become even more evident than ever that the RSF is committing a genocide. It is becoming clear that the RSF will kill anyone who is not "Arab". However, from my point kf view, the RSF is not just committing a genocide against the Masalits. They also perpetrating a genocide against the Zaghawa people as well. Qhairun (talk) 04:43, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
In this case Darfur genocide (2023-present) would be a better title, it is not a localised massacre anymore The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:37, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That seems like a good idea, yes. David A (talk) 07:50, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support to expanding this article's scope to include other targeted ethnic groups in Darfur. Title could be "Darfur genocide", "Genocide in Darfur", "Ethnic persecution in Darfur", etc. with the respective dates on parentheses. Super Ψ Dro 16:34, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely agree with you, @The Great Mule of Eupatoria. Zupaz (talk) 17:58, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, with the name being something like "Darfur genocide (2023-present)", as not only the Masalit are being targeted. Zupaz (talk) 17:56, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose moving it to Darfur genocide (2023–present), as that would erase the specific events targeting the Masalit, but support creating a separate article for the broader events, and neutral on calling either "genocide". Recent events have led many sources to quote experts either calling it a genocide, or using related labels. None of the experts quoted have been explicitly denying a genocide, although there isn't an explicit enough consensus for me to confidently state that we can use the label just yet. From a cursory Google News search for "darfur genocide":
  • DW.com quotes Shanya Lewis, described as a Sudan specialist and senior advisor at PAEMA, saying the RSF has systematic policies of genocide
  • BBC quotes Kate Ferguson, co-founder of Protection Approaches, also using the genocide label
  • France24 uses genocide warning in the headline but doesn't directly back it up in the article, although they do quote experts talking about systematic mass killings
  • The Economist only states the US accused the RSF of genocide back in January.
  • ABC News also repeats the US claim, but also mentions that experts see evidence of a possible genocide in the newest developments.
This is a situation where I have to separate my own opinions from my analysis of the sources. Do I personally believe the RSF are committing genocide? Absolutely, no doubt about that. Do I believe the consensus of reliable sources is strong enough to use that word? Now that's a tougher call, and I'm not sure whether we are there just yet, although we are certainly close at the very least. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 00:38, 3 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this, being also indifferent to titling this as a genocide since there has not been enough sources cited.
Here are a few of the sources I've found but haven't looked into much yet; it would be helpful if other could look into them:
1. de Waal, A. (2025). Lineages of Genocide in Sudan. Journal of Genocide Research, 1–19. https://doi.org/10.1080/14623528.2025.2495792, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2025.2495792?needAccess=true
2. This source speaks of "genocidal massacres": El-Affendi, A. (2024). The Futility of Genocide Studies After Gaza. Journal of Genocide Research, 1–7. https://doi.org/10.1080/14623528.2024.2305525: "the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) militia in Sudan committed, in its ongoing war with the incumbent regime, a series of genocidal massacres against particular ethnicities in Darfur."
3. Syed Shahryar Shah, Research Assistant at The Pakistan Institute of International Affairs, https://www.pakistan-horizon.piia.org.pk/index.php/pakistan-horizon/article/view/439/349
4. Gerald Walker, March 2025, International Policy Digest, https://intpolicydigest.org/the-sudan-genocide-is-a-nightmare/ IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:17, 3 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, these are certainly better quality sources than my quick Google search! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 02:29, 3 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Found this in the de Waal source: "Using the terms “genocide” and “famine” in Sudan today are correct, but insufficient. They are akin to measuring the highest peaks in a mountain range but leaving the range itself unnamed. We need a wider perspective and a different vocabulary to describe the overwhelming catastrophe in Sudan today."
I also found that he said "coverage by Declan Walsh in the New York Times has been exemplary." What I've found from Walsh includes: "Another genocide now threatens Darfur" (June 2025)
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocidal-civil-war-pushes-sudan-toward-the-abyss
This article by Walsh in NYT from a few days ago doesn't use the term genocide except to say "troops have continued to perpetrate atrocities, often targeting members of the Zaghawa ethnic group. The United Nations and rights groups call the atrocities war crimes. The Biden administration described them as genocide." https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/31/world/africa/darfur-sudan-atrocities.html
- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:44, 3 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this as well. I think there is a much stronger case to be made, given current literature, on naming the page Masalit genocide as the massacres against the Masalit were much more well-documented, targeted a particular group (and some stragglers like Bargo/Tama), and lasted until a certain date. I think that a page for broader events should be Ethnic cleansing in Darfur (2023-present), as there is a lot less sourcing behind claims of genocide of Zaghawa, Fur, etc. especially in comparison to the Darfur genocide in the 2000s. Jebiguess (talk) 04:53, 3 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Generally support calling this a genocide due to various sources provided by Bremps & IOHANNVSVERVS, along w/an article in The Guardian that compared the level of violence in El Fasher to the first 24 hours of the Rwandan genocide. I’d note that according to The Guardian article,

In a report released on Tuesday, the Yale lab said El Fasher “appears to be in a systematic and intentional process of ethnic cleansing of Fur, Zaghawa and Berti indigenous non-Arab communities through forced displacement and summary execution”.

That makes it seem like Second Darfur genocide, Darfur genocide (2023–present) or Genocide in Darfur (2023–present) would be a better title. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 10:59, 4 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support; all the current sources show that the killing is targeting the Masalit and those who resemble them en masse, with intent to exterminate, and there is essentially no dispute against this. RocksInMyDryer (talk) 04:52, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, for reasons stated above, and also because of the current controversy about apparent bias in having a "genocide" link appear on Wikipedia's front page after a news link about the Gaza War, but not having a similar "genocide" link after the news link regarding the Sudanese Civil War (or, for that matter, the Russo-Ukrainian War). I agree this demonstrates bias, there is as much support for claims of genocide coming from reliable sources and experts as there is relative to these other conflicts. Zachary Klaas (talk) 09:20, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"there is as much support for claims of genocide coming from reliable sources and experts as there is relative to these other conflicts." This is not true at all. There are not very many sources calling what's happening in Sudan today a genocide. Unless you know of more sources than have been cited here. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 15:18, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I still can't support the renaming due to a lack of sourcing, but there is enough sourcing that I don't oppose the rename either. From the little reading on this I've done, I think variants of Sudan genocide or Darfur genocide would be better than Masalit genocide. Per one of the sources I cited above "troops have continued to perpetrate atrocities, often targeting members of the Zaghawa ethnic group." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:40, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There could also be two separate pages. The Masalit genocide page could be much narrower in scope, referring to targeted attacks on Masalit communities in West Darfur in 2023 and early 2024. This page also doesn't reference the various massacres against Masalit civilians that occurred in Habila, Kulbus, Sirba, and more. The other page, whatever it may be titled, could refer to the massacres of non-Arab groups outside of the Masalit throughout the war and be much wider in scope. Jebiguess (talk) 21:49, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, one overall page and then one each for the various groups. Pencilceaser123 (talk) 22:52, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There probably shouldn't be a page for each targeted group. It's probably better to rescope this article as the second Darfur genocide or as ~Darfur genocide (2023-present). IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:56, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying have a Fur genocide, Zaghawa genocide, etc. page. However, the killings of Masalit were earlier on in the war (April-December 2023) and a much more well-documented and well-researched series of killings than ongoing killings of non-Arabs in El Fasher and the rest of Darfur. Hell, during the Geneina massacre, it was almost solely the Massalit that were targeted and killed by every other ethnic group, including Zaghawa (sometimes). Jebiguess (talk) 04:11, 6 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing this comment with the HRW report. Jebiguess (talk) 04:12, 6 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification. I actually don't know very much about this topic so please don't weigh my input too heavily (although I have at least tried to find what sources I could). IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:20, 6 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per IOHANNVSVERVS' comment, Second Darfur genocide already links to this article, so it could be appropriate to choose it for convenience/consistency, especially in keeping the genocides in Darfur chronological. Unless the RSF move towards operating in Sudan at large, I think this also tailors the scope, especially as many narrows the killings on group in Sudan's southeastern regions. I also think Jebiguess' follow-up is fitting if someone wants to take up a more intensive analysis on those groups specifically; for example, since this discussion is following the Al-Fashir massacre, we can look to that attack to see who the RSF is currently targeting—per that article at the moment: "Non-Arab ethnicities including the Zaghawa, Fur, Berti and Masalit; also prisoners of war." JulDer Wiki (talk) 22:21, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW I've struggled to find sources that say this is not a genocide. I've tried my best but I can't find any dispute. At most, sources hedge by saying "X says this is a genocide", which does not clash with the assertion that there is a genocide. There's no scholarly camp that I know of that affirmatively says "no, the RSF is not committing genocide". Bremps... 22:25, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I also haven't seen any sources disputing the genocide label. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:29, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I think it is still more telling that genocide scholars have pointed to this as a genocide and is, as I see it, the strongest base from which to argue for this move. JulDer Wiki (talk) 22:32, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
In the interest of intellectual honesty, I did find this analyst who disagreed with the genocide designation. Bremps... 20:12, 7 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. Here's a source suggesting the group thinks otherwise, but there's seems to be some contention definetly. JulDer Wiki (talk) 09:39, 9 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
More sources from searching for "genocide" + "Sudan":
-IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:07, 5 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'd recommend whoever does the inevitable barkeep close to run some options by everyone here before closing. Many thanks to that person in advance. Bremps... 03:17, 6 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support as the person who originally created the article, I named it the Masalit Genocide. Lukt64 (talk) 13:57, 6 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Not to WP:BLUDGEON, but is there any evidence that killings of Masalit in particular are still ongoing? There seems to be a consensus here that there was a genocide against Masalit people in 2023, but whether the page should be moved to Masalit genocide or a page encompassing wider genocidal campaigns against non-Arab peoples still seems up in the air. Given the more focused coverage of the ethnic cleansing of Masalit, I think it would be better to retitle this page to Masalit genocide and then have a separate discussion about a name for genocidal acts against non-Arabs outside of West Darfur state. Jebiguess (talk) 22:15, 6 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Not to bludgeon, but I would likely to WP:BOLDly propose the article be moved to Genocide committed by the Rapid Support Forces. (Intended to be descriptive, not a WP:COMMONNAME.) I don't think we have enough editors or attention to create a genocide page for every ethnicity being targeted, and the sourcing itself is also muddled (sometimes not even specifying the ethnicity of victims). This isn't strictly Wikipedia policy, but I would doubt RSF members would ask whether someone is Masalit or Zaghawa before they shot them for having Black skin. In addition, there would be huge overlaps in the pages. The RSF itself is the only real constant that allows us to present a coherent narrative of what's going on in Sudan, leading from El Geneina to El Fasher. Alternatively, Genocide of Black Sudanese or Genocide in Darfur could work. Bremps... 20:10, 7 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Sudan genocide (2023 and onwards)" or possibly "Genocide in Sudan (2023 and onwards)", combined with redirect links from all of the other sensible suggested names here, including your own, seems easiest to find for those who want to learn about the subject. David A (talk) 05:46, 8 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I support "genocide in Sudan (2023-present)"
RSF isn't always the exact people doing the killings, as sometimes it includes militias not technically part of the RSF and there have been killings outside of darfur Pencilceaser123 (talk) 07:14, 8 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, using "-present" instead of "and onwards" is better. David A (talk) 07:54, 8 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I support Genocide in Sudan (2023-present) JulDer Wiki (talk) 06:42, 10 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just the RSF conducting the genocide, though. In Geneina, it was the RSF and Janjaweed. Its just like the Rwandan genocide in the sense that there's one group spearheading the genocide, but saying they're doing all the killings is disingenuous. Jebiguess (talk) 03:49, 10 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I see a number of comments pointing out that relatively few sources have characterized the Sudan events as a genocide relative to the Gaza events. To my knowledge, however, the assertion that a genocide is ongoing in Darfur is, once one factors in the unfortunate relative obscurity of Sudan, not publicly disputed to remotely the same extent as Gaza. This would arguably imply that a stronger consensus exists in the sources wrt Sudan than Gaza, notwithstanding the lack of mass in coverage of Sudan. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 14:11, 9 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support, Gaza is one example but I believe this also has the same precedent as the Tigray genocide, but arguably this genocide has a stronger consensus in scholarly and human rights sources. Here's some more sources I found:
Human Rights Watch - "Targeting the Massalit people and other non-Arab communities by committing serious violations against them with the apparent objective of at least having them permanently leave the region constitutes ethnic cleansing. The particular context in which the widespread killings took place also raises the possibility that the RSF and their allies have the intent to destroy in whole or in part the Massalit in at least West Darfur, which would indicate that genocide has been and/or is being committed there."
Foreign Affairs article by Alex de Waal - "The mass killing of civilians in El Fasher was foreseeable and foreseen; genocide has been underway in Sudan since well before October. Official recognitions that a genocide is happening or even International Criminal Court (ICC) charges and sanctions cannot stop it. Indeed, to some observers, the war has acquired a brutal sense of inevitability."
Guardian article says that British government was warned of genocide risk by expert analysts. Wisenerd (talk) 05:03, 10 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Coming back to this, STILL no bartenders close? Pencilceaser123 (talk) 23:18, 10 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Closer comment, I closed this discussion, though perhaps I didn't have sufficient grounds to do so. Hence, I've reverted the closure and am relisting the discussion. I apologise for the disruption. Thanks, Glasspalace (talk | contribs) 01:35, 12 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Previous wrongful closure by me which has since been reverted. Relisting in light of that. Thanks, Glasspalace (talk | contribs) 01:36, 12 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I made a request in the topic below, if anybody is willing to take a look at and respond to it. David A (talk) 07:09, 12 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Should somebody create redirect links from the other titles with the word "Genocide" in them that were suggested in the now closed discussion above, in order to make this page much easier to find? David A (talk) 09:55, 11 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the names in discussion:
Related to Darfur specifically:
  • Darfur Genocide (2023-present)
  • Second Darfur Genocide
  • Genocide in Darfur
Related to Sudan specifically:
  • Sudan genocide (2023-present)
  • Genocide in Sudan (2023-present)
Related to Ethnic/Racial targeting:
  • Masalit Genocide (original suggestion)
  • Genocide of Black Sudanese
Some things to keep in mind based on the discussion above:
  • There was initial disputes between the designation of "genocide," however the overwhelming opinion, based on expert perspectives, finds it legitimate to call the article title and current killings a "genocide."
  • The conflict could go outside of Darfur, but is largely limited within the region. This is consistent with speculation that the RSF could later establish a de facto state in the region. Should the limits of the insurgency expand, it would probably be another discussion.
  • It is unclear but unlikely that the RSF is targeting any particular ethnic group, although there are definitely indications, even from RSF videos, that ethic tensions and racial targeting is at play.
  • The article which covers the insurgency between 2003-2005 is called Darfur genocide, which might be worth factoring in for consistency's sake.
JulDer Wiki (talk) 10:31, 12 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to note that the targeting of Masalit in West Darfur is entirely unrelated to the killings in El Fasher. In West Darfur and Geneina, the genocide was targeted almost entirely against Masalit (on occasion Tama and Bargo), and in El Fasher, Tawila road, Bara', and elsewhere it is targeted against all non-Arab groups. Not to mention, the last major killings of Masalit occurred in November 2023 at Ardamata. Most reports highlight the anti-Masalit campaign in 2023, and the larger non-Arab campaign in 2024-5.
Ex. Sources highlighting Masalit targeting
Versus sources highlighting post-2023 non-Arab targeting
I think the best case would be to rename this page Masalit genocide with an emphasis on the events between April-December 2023 in West Darfur, and have a second page titled Ethnic cleansing in Darfur (2023-present) or Genocide in Darfur (2023-present) broadening the scope to all non-Arab groups. Jebiguess (talk) 00:43, 15 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That would be the best option but we also have to take into account how many editors are willing to dedicate substantial time to these articles.
Also, what happened to the previous move? [not to you specifically] Bremps... 03:24, 15 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the most crucial issue right now is to help bring attention to the genocide that is currently occurring, especially given the low update rate for this page, so maybe it would be best to rename it to "Genocide in Darfur (2023-present)" or something similar in lack of better options, if we do not have any other Wikipedia page that better covers the topic at the moment. David A (talk) 06:17, 15 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I second @Bremps and @David A's comment. Although @Jebiguess I think you are correct in that it would be best to split the two, I think what's most appropriate for now if to go for a broader title like Genocide in Darfur (2023-present) or Second Darfur Genocide (2023-present), and then if a second page covering the targeting of Masalit specifically wants to be made, it can go into more depth. JulDer Wiki (talk) 20:15, 16 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I just created a page Darfur genocide (2023-present) to highlight all attacks against non-Arabs throughout the war, and will be updating it throughout the week. Also lets us keep this page as Masalit genocide. Jebiguess (talk) 23:29, 17 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Good closing! Thanks for your efforts @Jebiguess JulDer Wiki (talk) 06:23, 18 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Thanks a lot. David A (talk) 11:25, 18 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion notice

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Information icon There is currently a discussion at Talk:Darfur genocide regarding disambiguation of primary topic. The thread is Primary topic?. The discussion is about the topic Darfur genocide. Regards, CNC (talk) 12:46, 18 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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